Bitcoin

[ValueNZ]

Your opinion of what an investment is, and whether Bitcoin is one, is statistically meaningless compared to Bitcoin's market cap.

The market cap of something doesn't determine whether it's speculative or an investment lol.

[Azz]

The market cap of something doesn't determine whether it's speculative or an investment lol.

It proves delusional statements are just that: delusional.

[Azz]

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What Is an Investment?

An investment is an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation. Appreciation refers to an increase in the value of an asset over time. When an individual purchases a good as an investment, the intent is not to consume the good but rather to use it in the future to create wealth.

An investment always concerns the outlay of some resource today—time, effort, money, or an asset—in hopes of a greater payoff in the future than what was originally put in. For example, an investor may purchase a monetary asset now with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or will later be sold at a higher price for a profit.

An investment involves putting capital to use today in order to increase its value over time.

An investment requires putting capital to work, in the form of time, money, effort, etc., in hopes of a greater payoff in the future than what was originally put in.

An investment can refer to any medium or mechanism used for generating future income, including bonds, stocks, real estate property, or alternative investments.

Investments usually do not come with guarantees of appreciation; it is possible to end up with less money than with what you started.

Investments can be diversified to reduce risk, though this may reduce the amount of earning potential.

[The definition then goes on to describe various types of investments, including cryptocurrency.]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp
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[ValueNZ]

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What Is an Investment?

An investment is an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation. Appreciation refers to an increase in the value of an asset over time. When an individual purchases a good as an investment, the intent is not to consume the good but rather to use it in the future to create wealth.

An investment always concerns the outlay of some resource today—time, effort, money, or an asset—in hopes of a greater payoff in the future than what was originally put in. For example, an investor may purchase a monetary asset now with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or will later be sold at a higher price for a profit.

An investment involves putting capital to use today in order to increase its value over time.

An investment requires putting capital to work, in the form of time, money, effort, etc., in hopes of a greater payoff in the future than what was originally put in.

An investment can refer to any medium or mechanism used for generating future income, including bonds, stocks, real estate property, or alternative investments.

Investments usually do not come with guarantees of appreciation; it is possible to end up with less money than with what you started.

Investments can be diversified to reduce risk, though this may reduce the amount of earning potential.

[The definition then goes on to describe various types of investments, including cryptocurrency.]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp
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Who has a better definition, Benjamin Graham one of the greatest investors to ever have lived, or some Investopedia article? Lmao

[Azz]

Who has a better definition, Benjamin Graham one of the greatest investors to ever have lived, or some Investopedia article? Lmao

Do you know how many holders of Bitcoin consider it not to be an investment? None.

There is a direct relationship between not holding Bitcoin and hating Bitcoin.

[ValueNZ]

Do you know how many holders of Bitcoin consider it not to be an investment? None.

There is a direct relationship between not holding Bitcoin and hating Bitcoin.

That's because holders of Bitcoin don't understand the difference between speculation and investment, and that the returns of productive assets will smash the returns of nonproductive assets over the long run. If they did they wouldn't be holding bitcoin.

[Azz]

ValueNZ, you have an "absolutist" approach. Which only works if the tenets you believe are fully real and to the exclusion of all other approaches. At what point do you admit that you have been led up the garden path?

[Azz]

That's because holders of Bitcoin don't understand the difference between speculation and investment, and that the returns of productive assets will smash the returns of nonproductive assets over the long run. If they did they wouldn't be holding bitcoin.

Bitcoin has been around 15 years. During that time, many fortunes have been made. It's the best investment of those 15 years. Nothing comes close. This is empirical fact.

You're obsessing over words. "Speculation",  "investment", "productive assets". I focus on the real world - and actual, real returns.

[ValueNZ]

Bitcoin has been around 15 years. During that time, many fortunes have been made. It's the best investment of those 15 years. Nothing comes close. This is empirical fact.

You're obsessing over words. "Speculation",  "investment", "productive assets". I focus on the real world - and actual, real returns.

These words matter, how you generate returns actually matters immensely. Because we are investing for our entire lives, you need to consider more than just the monthly, or yearly short-term outcomes and figure out what works over the long run. My "obsession" with words is really just an obsession with the process of investing for the long run.

[Azz]

These words matter, how you generate returns actually matters immensely. Because we are investing for our entire lives, you need to consider more than just the monthly, or yearly short-term outcomes and figure out what works over the long run. My "obsession" with words is really just an obsession with the process of investing for the long run.

Well, good luck, hope it works out for you. But your "system" is not currently corresponding to the real world for Bitcoin, Nvidia, or OCA.

[Azz]

My "obsession" with words is really just an obsession with the process of investing for the long run.

The "long run"? Wondering, how do you define that? Your beloved Oceania Healthcare listed on the NZX on 5 May 2017, for the princely sum of 79 NZ cents per share. On that day, Bitcoin was trading for around US$1,550. Fast forward to today! OCA is worth 66 NZ cents; Bitcoin is worth US$71,900. How do they compare as investments? An ability to do basic mathematics will help here. And the childish response "Bitcoin is not an investment" doesn't get you or anyone else of like mind out of jail free. It's exceedingly interesting to me such a stark comparison as I've made in this post; essentially how NZ capital has been misallocated because of the pervasive, suffocating, ultra-conservative, and somewhat grey-matter-challenged outlook on the "rules" of investment.

[Breezy]

The "long run"? Wondering, how do you define that? Your beloved Oceania Healthcare listed on the NZX on 5 May 2017, for the princely sum of 79 NZ cents per share. On that day, Bitcoin was trading for around US$1,550. Fast forward to today! OCA is worth 66 NZ cents; Bitcoin is worth US$71,900. How do they compare as investments? An ability to do basic mathematics will help here. And the childish response "Bitcoin is not an investment" doesn't get you or anyone else of like mind out of jail free. It's exceedingly interesting to me such a stark comparison as I've made in this post; essentially how NZ capital has been misallocated because of the pervasive, suffocating, ultra-conservative, and somewhat grey-matter-challenged outlook on the "rules" of investment.

Well yes you can make mountains of dosh out of many things if you get lucky, even Pokémon cards and items are now coming into their own with some fetching eye watering prices, think I've got a few quite old ones hidden away so better start searching. Bitcoin has done very well and has been a great punt for those that like buying electronic pieces of data floating around somewhere unseen.

[Azz]

Well yes you can make mountains of dosh out of many things if you get lucky,

At a certain point, during 15 years of obvious growth in the asset that is Bitcoin and investing in it, luck can be taken out of the equation.

even Pokémon cards and items are now coming into their own with some fetching eye watering prices, think I've got a few quite old ones hidden away so better start searching.

Sure, and I have no problem with that, you go find them! But you can't compare Pokemon cards with the US$1.3 trillion which is the Bitcoin market cap. You also can't compare the two in a number of other ways - for instance, Pokemon cards are not easily divisible and transferable over the internet.

Bitcoin has done very well and has been a great punt for those that like buying electronic pieces of data floating around somewhere unseen.

What do you think, for example, Netflix is? What about phone apps? Do phone apps get delivered to you by courier? You've got something stuck in your head which doesn't line up with reality. It's like if you preferred candles over electricity: "Candles are real. I can't see electricity so what a load of rubbish that electricity stuff is."

[Breezy]

Both candles and electricity are real and electricity can be seen under certain circumstances unlike Bitcoin which can never be seen because it doesn't exist in any physical sense whatsoever.

[Azz]

Both candles and electricity are real and electricity can be seen under certain circumstances unlike Bitcoin which can never be seen because it doesn't exist in any physical sense whatsoever.

Bitcoin exists/can exist in a "physical" sense in two separate ways.

1) On a computer which is a "physical" object, specifically within forms of memory (each of which is a "physical" object).
2) The keys can be printed out onto "physical" paper.