OCA - Oceania Healthcare

[Breezy]

I could tell you some more of these stories from family and friends, but just follow the media - you hear every other month or so about somebody who died either because they have been mistreated or ignored in the NZ health system. Outcome is typically at best a "Sorry" to the relatives and then we just continue as normal. Having observed the white wash mechanism of the system myself - I can guarantee you that what you hear is only the tip of the iceberg. That's not sensationalism, this is just the way it is.

The cited Oceania story is neither unusual nor remarkable for the NZ Health system. Maybe bad luck for the patient, but this is all it is.

Well yes exactly and that particular flu was introduced by a visitor in this instance but the axes will no doubt keep grinding on here.

[mike2023]

Nothing out of the ordinary to see here and a few years ago a local SUM village had 20 residents die during a winter due to a flu outbreak, didn't make the news.

Yip, I know someone with a private care home lost a third of her residents in a fortnight during covid.

My Grandmother spent 8 years in a care home, had a couple of falls, usually in the middle of the night, we didnt blame staff she was 100 years old by then and still tying to do things herself.

[Breezy]

The trolls are out in force on the other channel on the OCA thread, one in particular who is completely full of bull****. Kinda glad i can't participate or I'd be giving them stick.

[winner (n)]

Another month passes and SUM shareprice performs better than OCA ...both were down but OCA down greater %age

Updated chart ....you'd think the trend would end one day .....yes? .....note I didn't change the y-axis scale assuming it can't go below 5%

You cannot view this attachment.

[Untamed]

I am very glad to hear that you didn't blame the staff. Increased falls risk is a reality of ageing. As we age, we not only become less steady on our feet, our ability to balance ourselves, is significantly impaired. That is the number one reason that most elderly folk in rest homes, have walkers. It isn't because they are necessarily frail or have mobility issues due to health conditions. It is usually because a walker helps them maintain better balance as they are walking, which reduces the chance of a fall.

Nobody can stop elderly folk having falls entirely. All we can do is reduce the risk by taking precautions such as keeping walkways, bedroom areas open and clear of trip hazards. Ensuring people wear sensible and supportive footwear is also important. The only way to prevent any falls is to have someone accompany the person 24/7, which is obviously impractical and not even remotely doable. Having said that, sometimes a person can fall even while a staff member is with them. One minute they are upright, and the next minute they are on the ground, and you have absolutely no idea how it happened. That happened to me some years ago. I was helping a gentleman to use the toilet. I did everything to the letter in terms of supporting him to walk, with his walker, to the ensuite, ensured his brakes were on when we parked up for him to use the toilet. I even had my hands on him, as an extra precaution, as he was notoriously unstable on his feet. Right before my eyes, he went from standing, to lying on the floor. In a fraction of a second. To this day, I still have no idea how it happened. I have never felt so bad, and I blamed myself for a long time, but I now understand and accept, that sometimes falls happen, in the blink of an eye, and there is literally nothing more I could have done, to prevent it.


 

My Grandmother spent 8 years in a care home, had a couple of falls, usually in the middle of the night, we didnt blame staff she was 100 years old by then and still tying to do things herself.

[Buzz]

It's an interesting paradox being an investor in aged care property development and the realities of actual care for our aged. I know that a few of us here have first hand experience, in caring for others and caring for our loved ones while they are in gods waiting room.

An amusing story that I used to tease my dad mercilessly about (because he was a real joker and teaser all his life, so to get some back on him). He was a very clever civil engineer, and until his death I'd take my daughter to visit him at the RV hospital care, and despite his moderate dementia they'd work on her calculus maths. He was so astute and onto it, showing her how to derive the formulae before applying it, and she learnt a great deal from him. It was quite the paradox.

When that was done, about 5:30 was dinner time and I'd help him up out of his laZyboy recliner and onto his stroller and walk from the lounge to the door. At the door he would always ask "which way?", left or right?

Now let's join up the civil engineer with a very sharp mind for building design and maths and calculus, even at his age, and wonder why he would ask "which way?" (to the dining room). The hospital care facility was a square box, you go left it took 30 paces, you go right it took 90 paces, either way you arrived at the dining room.

I'd say to dad, "would you like to go the short way or the long way, you have to walk this by yourself with the stroller". He'd always say, let's go the short way. 10-15 steps into that, he'd say, "can I sit down now, and you wheel me in?"

"Ok Dad" I'd say, thanks for helping your grand daughter with her maths today.

This went on for a few years, I got to know all the staff and the residents, I'd visit my dad twice a week, religiously, help out with dinner time, resident 'events', driving the outings van and other things. They were good times albeit desperately the end-of-times, for him.

If I was an investor in that home, I would put care and compassion above any monetary return. It changed me, for the better I feel.

To OCA and the other listed RV's, I'm with Justakiwi. Although I have significant proportion of portfolio invested, it is invested in the ultimate realisation of the property development however long that takes, while in the meantime I can rest assured that our residents are very well cared for, happy, contented and living the best rest of their life that they can, and deserve.

[Untamed]

I really needed this post today.

Thank you for cheering me up!

It's an interesting paradox being an investor in aged care property development and the realities of actual care for our aged. I know that a few of us here have first hand experience, in caring for others and caring for our loved ones while they are in gods waiting room.

An amusing story that I used to tease my dad mercilessly about (because he was a real joker and teaser all his life, so to get some back on him). He was a very clever civil engineer, and until his death I'd take my daughter to visit him at the RV hospital care, and despite his moderate dementia they'd work on her calculus maths. He was so astute and onto it, showing her how to derive the formulae before applying it, and she learnt a great deal from him. It was quite the paradox.

When that was done, about 5:30 was dinner time and I'd help him up out of his laZyboy recliner and onto his stroller and walk from the lounge to the door. At the door he would always ask "which way?", left or right?

Now let's join up the civil engineer with a very sharp mind for building design and maths and calculus, even at his age, and wonder why he would ask "which way?" (to the dining room). The hospital care facility was a square box, you go left it took 30 paces, you go right it took 90 paces, either way you arrived at the dining room.

I'd say to dad, "would you like to go the short way or the long way, you have to walk this by yourself with the stroller". He'd always say, let's go the short way. 10-15 steps into that, he'd say, "can I sit down now, and you wheel me in?"

"Ok Dad" I'd say, thanks for helping your grand daughter with her maths today.

This went on for a few years, I got to know all the staff and the residents, I'd visit my dad twice a week, religiously, help out with dinner time, resident 'events', driving the outings van and other things. They were good times albeit desperately the end-of-times, for him.

If I was an investor in that home, I would put care and compassion above any monetary return. It changed me, for the better I feel.

To OCA and the other listed RV's, I'm with Justakiwi. Although I have significant proportion of portfolio invested, it is invested in the ultimate realisation of the property development however long that takes, while in the meantime I can rest assured that our residents are very well cared for, happy, contented and living the best rest of their life that they can, and deserve.

[Basil]

I know from experience its really tough to watch your Dad gradually lose his mind to dementia over the years, my Dad had a 7 year journey and it was difficult for the whole family, especially my Mum.  It didn't escape my attention however there is something of an irony Buzz in you sharing your journey in the OCA thread, a company that does not to the best of my knowledge provide dementia care.  Just a thought, maybe the fact they don't is a factor in their slow sales ?...i.e. they're not truly providing a full continuum of care.

How is it that ARV, RYM and SUM all provide dementia care but OCA don't ?

[Breezy]

I know from experience its really tough to watch your Dad gradually lose his mind to dementia over the years, my Dad had a 7 year journey and it was difficult for the whole family, especially my Mum.  It didn't escape my attention however there is something of an irony Buzz in you sharing your journey in the OCA thread, a company that does not to the best of my knowledge provide dementia care.  Just a thought, maybe the fact they don't is a factor in their slow sales ?...i.e. they're not truly providing a full continuum of care.

How is it that ARV, RYM and SUM all provide dementia care but OCA don't ?

They do in many of their facilities just like the other 3 and I should know because I've worked in two of them. Sometimes it pays to do more research before down ramping.

[Basil]

I looked at their three most premier villages, The Helier, The Sands and Meadowbank.  On the website tab for these villages which are their foremost product offering, it's clear dementia care is not available.  The Sands doesn't even offer palliative end of life care, I know, I asked for my Mum.

It's a pretty messed up and confused product offer when their three most premier villages don't offer basic dementia care let alone lock-up advanced dementia care.  I guess it's their older villages that they're trying to sell, wherein some might offer dementia care.   "Believe in better"...hmmm

I'm just here to enjoy the investment community and the banter.  I wouldn't imagine for one moment any opinion I share on here about any company would have any effect on its share price.

[Untamed]

You are an odd fellow Basil. I would have thought you'd be happy for RVs not to provide dementia care, given your view that there is no money in care. You have repeatedly implied that RVs should be getting "out" of care altogether. Dementia care costs significantly more to provide, and is probably even less profitable than rest home level care. Yet here you are, having a dig at OCA for not providing it in all its facilities.

Having said that, many folk with dementia can be catered for at rest home level. I imagine OCA would support folk who were in that category. Providing secure dementia care is a whole different ball game, requiring additional investment in development of a secure unit, and much higher levels of staffing, especially at D6 level. Without adequate government funding, I can see why RVs would be reluctant to go down that road.

I looked at their three most premier villages, The Helier, The Sands and Meadowbank.  On the website tab for these villages which are their foremost product offering, it's clear dementia care is not available.  The Sands doesn't even offer palliative end of life care, I know, I asked for my Mum.

It's a pretty messed up and confused product offer when their three most premier villages don't offer basic dementia care let alone lock-up advanced dementia care.  I guess it's their older villages that they're trying to sell, wherein some might offer dementia care.   "Believe in better"...hmmm

I'm just here to enjoy the investment community and the banter.  I wouldn't imagine for one moment any opinion I share on here about any company would have any effect on its share price.

[Breezy]

I looked at their three most premier villages, The Helier, The Sands and Meadowbank.  On the website tab for these villages which are their foremost product offering, it's clear dementia care is not available.  The Sands doesn't even offer palliative end of life care, I know, I asked for my Mum.

It's a pretty messed up and confused product offer when their three most premier villages don't offer basic dementia care let alone lock-up advanced dementia care.  I guess it's their older villages that they're trying to sell, wherein some might offer dementia care.  "Believe in better"...hmmm

I'm just here to enjoy the investment community and the banter.  I wouldn't imagine for one moment any opinion I share on here about any company would have any effect on its share price.

Your post seemed desperate to find some mud that would stick by making out that none of the OCA villages provide dementia care compared to its competitors which is simply untrue. You do realise that not all of the competitors villages provide dementia care including your beloved SUM, a fact you conveniently bypassed.

[mike2023]

You are an odd fellow Basil. I would have thought you'd be happy for RVs not to provide dementia care, given your view that there is no money in care. You have repeatedly implied that RVs should be getting "out" of care altogether. Dementia care costs significantly more to provide, and is probably even less profitable than rest home level care. Yet here you are, having a dig at OCA for not providing it in all its facilities.

Having said that, many folk with dementia can be catered for at rest home level. I imagine OCA would support folk who were in that category. Providing secure dementia care is a whole different ball game, requiring additional investment in development of a secure unit, and much higher levels of staffing, especially at D6 level. Without adequate government funding, I can see why RVs would be reluctant to go down that road.

D6 is not common to each home or company and people with that level of need tend to get shifted, I have family working in care and I spend a bit of time around a few rest homes. But many dementia residents are easily cared for at a hospital level if they have no serious behavioral issues. Nana had dementia but nothing changed, she stayed where she was, happy, till 103.

[Basil]

Dementia care costs significantly more to provide, and is probably even less profitable than rest home level care. Yet here you are, having a dig at OCA for not providing it in all its facilities.

Quite surprised that OCA doesn't provide dementia care at their three premier villages.  I thought if you pay the big bucks, (and we're talking $3.5K per week at the Helier) they would have an all-encompassing care service.  Obviously not.  This is a risk factor for me with my family history so i need to be very careful what village I select in the future to ensure my future possible needs are being met.  That seems to rule out the Helier which is a bit disappointing.  Good location there looking out over the Hauraki gulf where I go boating a lot.  Would have been nice to sit there and look at the view and reflect on earlier days...oh well, never mind...probably a bit "high brow" for me anyway...know the Mrs. feels that way too..

Your post seemed desperate to find some mud that would stick by making out that none of the OCA villages provide dementia care

I'm still quite a significant bondholder in OCA so I am a meaningful stakeholder here and as a bondholder I am keen to see their debt doesn't blow out to uncomfortable level's.   OCA010 hit 8.12% on the debt market yesterday.  That yield suggests to me the market is starting to get uncomfortable with their debt level and debt servicing capabilities. Like many shareholders I am trying to figure out why their sales in the last half were fairly weak compared to others in the sector.  Thought maybe the lack of dementia care could be part of the answer but perhaps not.

How do you explain the weak sales considering they have record levels of completed stock ?

[Teitei]

I'm still quite a significant bondholder in OCA so I am a meaningful stakeholder here and as a bondholder I am keen to see their debt doesn't blow out to uncomfortable level's.  Like many shareholders I am trying to figure out why their sales in the last half were fairly weak compared to others in the sector.  Thought maybe the lack of dementia care could be part of the answer but perhaps not.

How do you explain the weak sales considering they have record levels of completed stock ?

Suggestion on the other site that OCA could have forward booked 'sales' in H1 (eg.The Helier), presumably to make numbers look good when they reported their H1 results in Nov 23.

If true, would account for drop in H2 sales so then, it is critical to look at the yoy sales trend.

Share price looks like OCA is considering a CR?  Word tends to leak out (re RYM) when the lead brokers are in discussions with sub-underwriters. Pure speculation on my part.