Wealth Taxes

[BlackPeter]

Australia just released its budget with big tax cuts for upper income earners.  The new tax rate of 30% will apply from $45k to $200k.  On top of the first $18k being tax free.  This not only impacts income taxes, but the rate at which capital gains tax will be charged, at 50% of 30% (ie. 15%) for assets held longer than a year.  Sure beats NZ 100% capital gains on property held for less than 10 years.

Good luck to NZ trying to keep workers.

Good stuff ... my favourite fishing spot got anyway a bit too crowded recently ;

But anyway - I think NZ will be better off if we lose the people who are only here to save paying taxes. I guess - first they are not very intelligent in the first place (otherwise they would live in Singapore or the Caymans, if paying low taxes is the only thing they care about) and second - they are clearly not very community minded.

Win-Win.

[KW]

Good stuff ... my favourite fishing spot got anyway a bit too crowded recently ;

But anyway - I think NZ will be better off if we lose the people who are only here to save paying taxes. I guess - first they are not very intelligent in the first place (otherwise they would live in Singapore or the Caymans, if paying low taxes is the only thing they care about) and second - they are clearly not very community minded.

Win-Win.

The good news is that without doctors and nurses most Kiwi's will be dead pretty quickly, so your fishing spots will be even quieter.   

[BlackPeter]

The good news is that without doctors and nurses most Kiwi's will be dead pretty quickly, so your fishing spots will be even quieter.   

Only less doctors and nurses who care more about their taxes than their patients. I really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and  quality of life ...

Looking at Europe as example - I remember that Sweden (and other parts of Scandinavia) used to have for decades really shocking taxrates (90% + - including compulsory social insurance payments) ... and while I know that some games started to go on with qualified staff asking for part of their salary going into overseas accounts - the healthcare in Sweden was always better than it is currently in NZ!

But hey - each to their own. Just stop this non sense scare mongering game ... nobody cares if some rich people leave to die alone in some far away country.

[KW]

I really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and  quality of life ...

Not really.  Its just that all of those things are better in Australia.  As is the weather and the beaches.  Its not like anyone is talking about moving to South Sudan.  

[Minimoke]

Only less doctors and nurses who care more about their taxes than their patients. I really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and  quality of life ...

Looking at Europe as example - I remember that Sweden (and other parts of Scandinavia) used to have for decades really shocking taxrates (90% + - including compulsory social insurance payments) ... and while I know that some games started to go on with qualified staff asking for part of their salary going into overseas accounts - the healthcare in Sweden was always better than it is currently in NZ!

But hey - each to their own. Just stop this non sense scare mongering game ... nobody cares if some rich people leave to die alone in some far away country.

I'm not a small person, but you won't catch me walking alone in the CBD at night. Dont get me started on family values - have you seen what the ministry of Education id putting out? And quality of life is eroding in a two tier democracy.

All of these things erode social wealth. Which can be compnesated to some degree by cash /asset wealth. But if more eof that is taken via greater tax rate then the incetive to remain here disappears.

Doctors and nurses invest a great deal of personal debt to become skilled and qualified. It is incumbent on them to market their skills to those who are prepared to pay for those things and thus reduce their personal debt and increase their personal wealth. Unless we expect them to work for Medics Without Borders.

[Ferg]

Not really.  Its just that all of those things are better in Australia.  As is the weather and the beaches.  Its not like anyone is talking about moving to South Sudan. 

Agreed.  Hard to see a better "quality of life" in NZ when when we have a flood of 501s, ram raids out of control, gangs a law unto themselves, police cuddling criminals, weather bombs, politics of division, student politicians pushing student agendas like wealth taxes ... and the list goes on ... and that is not mentioning some of the points you touched on.  I know a few that have gone to Oz recently....it is very tempting.  And it's not just because of tax rates....as President Trump said "everything woke turns to shit" and I don't want to be the guy funding that.  Much like here and in NZ, 20% do 80% of the work.  Under certain circumstances I would happily turn my back on this country.

[arekaywhy]

I see we have 100 wealthy morons in our fair land that wish we could be taxed more...

Can someone tell them that they are free to pay more tax whenever they wish.  Didn't Cindy set up a hotline for this very purpose?

Also, seeing as they have so many of Queen's vouchers laying about, they could always take it upon themselves to actually do something for the poor they speak of...but then, that would involve getting their hands dirty or worse, having to mix with the plebs.

I guess that points to the heart of the issue.  We have far too many communists/statists in this country, who believe that someone else should do whatever it is they think is a good thing.

[Minimoke]

I see we have 100 wealthy morons in our fair land that wish we could be taxed more...

Can someone tell them that they are free to pay more tax whenever they wish.  Didn't Cindy set up a hotline for this very purpose?

Also, seeing as they have so many of Queen's vouchers laying about, they could always take it upon themselves to actually do something for the poor they speak of...but then, that would involve getting their hands dirty or worse, having to mix with the plebs.

I guess that points to the heart of the issue.  We have far too many communists/statists in this country, who believe that someone else should do whatever it is they think is a good thing.

So these 100 people think the government can spend there money better than they can. I disagree,

What they could do with their surplus cash is
- pay their workers more
- embark on philanthropic works (which many do) such as Charity Hospitals, Literacy / Numeracy camps, Fund literacy in prisons, fund driver license training for school kids etc
- deposit some into my bank account

And what happens if the wealthy pay more tax. It just allows the govern to spend it on all sorts of things. Like race based media support, foreign country donations, employ more consultants and public servants, subsidize the wealthy with things like EV rebates etc

[arekaywhy]

...
- deposit some into my bank account
...

I favour this option personally

[BlackPeter]

I read some years ago a survey where students had been asked to assess their performance compared to their peers, and 95% of them rated themselves as "above average". Quite funny, isn't it?

This is the reason we ask independent people to assess their performance.

Same with taxpayers ... hardly anybody complaining that they are taxed too little. On the other hand - the overwhelming majority is happily complaining that they get not enough from the state, no matter whether we talking building and maintaining infrastructure, maintaining social services, providing quality education, better policing, larger prisons or better health care.

Lets just say that people like to whinge, and this thread is a great example for that.

Of course - while we all love to take the states services for us as granted, we always see the potential to save money by cutting somebody else's services. I don't know why we need to pay any money for Auckland's infrastructure, and hey - I pay my doctor anyway privately, why would we need a public health system? Just kidding, but I guess you get the point.

And sometimes we might be right, but often (see number above as guidance) we are wrong.

However - this is not really what this thread is about. I don't think anybody here suggested that the state should further increase its tax take. The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be? ... or could it be improved by e.g. reducing the existing tax rates (like income tax and GST) and increasing instead the number of tax sources, like e.g. adding a capital gains tax.

I think this would be a fair point to discuss ... and maybe we could even do it with the good of the country in mind instead of everybody just looking at further reducing their personal tax bill.

But please - stop whinging - its not productive and it feels so sad. Humans are social beings ... and we need the society as everybody else does. So, lets not whinge about every cent we have to contribute.

Just saying ...

[Minimoke]

I read some years ago a survey where students had been asked to assess their performance compared to their peers, and 95% of them rated themselves as "above average". Quite funny, isn't it?

This is the reason we ask independent people to assess their performance.

Same with taxpayers ... hardly anybody complaining that they are taxed too little. On the other hand - the overwhelming majority is happily complaining that they get not enough from the state, no matter whether we talking building and maintaining infrastructure, maintaining social services, providing quality education, better policing, larger prisons or better health care.

Lets just say that people like to whinge, and this thread is a great example for that.

Of course - while we all love to take the states services for us as granted, we always see the potential to save money by cutting somebody else's services. I don't know why we need to pay any money for Auckland's infrastructure, and hey - I pay my doctor anyway privately, why would we need a public health system? Just kidding, but I guess you get the point.

And sometimes we might be right, but often (see number above as guidance) we are wrong.

However - this is not really what this thread is about. I don't think anybody here suggested that the state should further increase its tax take. The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be? ... or could it be improved by e.g. reducing the existing tax rates (like income tax and GST) and increasing instead the number of tax sources, like e.g. adding a capital gains tax.

I think this would be a fair point to discuss ... and maybe we could even do it with the good of the country in mind instead of everybody just looking at further reducing their personal tax bill.

But please - stop whinging - its not productive and it feels so sad. Humans are social beings ... and we need the society as everybody else does. So, lets not whinge about every cent we have to contribute.

Just saying ...

I find it interesting that what I interpret as "discussion" you interpret as "whinging" but lets put that aside for a moment and get back to your post where you say "The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be?"

Before we can answer this question we have to understand what "fair" is. And I'll start the discussion by saying there is no such thing as "fair" Life isn't fair. Get over it. No point trying to achieve the undefinable.

[BlackPeter]

I find it interesting that what I interpret as "discussion" you interpret as "whinging" but lets put that aside for a moment and get back to your post where you say "The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be?"

Before we can answer this question we have to understand what "fair" is. And I'll start the discussion by saying there is no such thing as "fair" Life isn't fair. Get over it. No point trying to achieve the undefinable.

Right - life is not fair, but it is clearly possible to define shades of fairness.

Having one group of people paying everything and another group of people consuming everything e.g. would appear unfair, I assume we can agree on this?

Having everybody to pay for their own consumption (and user pays for common goods and services) appears fair, but only if you don't worry about responsibility and than - many people have money they didn't earn themselves - so, how is this fair that they can afford services other can't?

For me fairness would be everybody contributing at least a comparable proportion of their income (including capital gains) to the common good. I realize however that there is probably a higher number of wealthy people who consider a flat tax as fair. Funny that - one could even assume they are just selfish instead of fair? 

Maybe we should all just look around which tax system we like most and then vote with our feet. I am sure politicians will listen, if they are interested.

From a personal perspective - at the time I moved to NZ I halved my salary but roughly kept paying the same tax I paid before. Call me an idiot - but there are really more important things to life than minimising taxes. For me its the package (cost of living, quality of life, family, lifestyle) which counts.

While I am not sure whether I will stay forever in NZ, I am sure that it will not be the tax system moving me out of the country ... which means, this tax system still gets my vote, but I could live with a sensible CGT as well , and yes - I think it would be fairer if (realised) capital gains are considered income and taxed as appropriate;

[KW]

If I were running the country, I would scrap all income and capital taxes and become the Monaco of the South.  Like them, we could be a highly affluent society, with low unemployment, a world leading standard of living, and completely eliminate child poverty. 
https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-living-conditions-in-monaco/

How come no one ever proposes that type of tax solution?

[BlackPeter]

If I were running the country, I would scrap all income and capital taxes and become the Monaco of the South.  Like them, we could be a highly affluent society, with low unemployment, a world leading standard of living, and completely eliminate child poverty. 
https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-living-conditions-in-monaco/

How come no one ever proposes that type of tax solution?

If you draw a 800 km radius around Monaco (less than one hour flight), you have more than 200 million people in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France which Monaco can milk, and many of them rich enough to leave their money in Monaco's casino and night live.

How many people live in a 800 km radius around NZ who could do the same for us?

So - not quite comparable, if we need to force all of our potential punters to go first on a rather strenuous long haul flight.

But apart from that - you are not the first to suggest to operate this country a bit more intelligent than just killing of any sources of income and taxing what's left. Not sure about Monaco (which is anyway standalone not sustainable), but I would think it is possible for New Zealand to become the Switzerland of the South Pacific.

Invite the rich people into a safe home, look after their money ... and milk them.

Interesting scenario ... but probably a bit bigger than just debating wealth taxes - i.e. might deserve its own thread.

[KW]

If you draw a 800 km radius around Monaco (less than one hour flight), you have more than 200 million people in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France which Monaco can milk, and many of them rich enough to leave their money in Monaco's casino and night live.

How many people live in a 800 km radius around NZ who could do the same for us?

That could be sold as a feature and not a bug.  It also means that we are nowhere near the fallout zone of a nuclear war, nor likely to be invaded by a foreign nation.    
Just think of the amount of building and operating private airports and hangars for private planes that will be required. Jobs for all.