Well who was called in to do a INDE check on this Gun to the Head data collection process.
And what is Income ... anything including your much loved wine collection? or your paintings collection?
Looks like NZ is back the good old days when the UK taxed the estates into bare walls and run down castles.
Hang them and chop of their heads...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/131862801/richest-kiwis-pay-about-half-as-much-tax-on-the-dollar-as-the-average-new-zealander
All Labour really know how to do is tax more and spend more.
Quote from: Basil on Apr 26, 2023, 08:30 PMAll Labour really know how to do is tax more and spend more.
Not a Labour fan, but if this is true, than they can do already two things properly. Not a one trick pony anymore. How about the other parties :) ?
This smacks of history repeating.
When a gubmint has to scrounge for more of your stuff, society or at least the economy is on the way to the dogs.
Successful societies are the ones where the gubmint gets the hell out of the way, and lets you decide how to spend your own wealth.
What happens when the rich get wind of the fact that NZ wants to implement wealth taxes?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/06/new-zealand-loses-appeal-to-rich-foreigners-as-investor-visa-numbers-plunge
NZ is literally giving away permanent residency to rich people and still no one wants to take it. The New Zealanders currently living here will also vote with their feet.
interesting comments from all above.. but Chippie and his side kick albert (minister for the olympics) arnt listening ...
and the verdict is in....
they arnt coming south...
thanks fir the posting ...
Wealthy client sent this to me this morning.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/BomQxCG5VG4?rel=0&autoplay=1
Sent that to Jordon at TPU.
Quote from: Basil on Apr 29, 2023, 10:53 AMWealthy client sent this to me this morning.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/BomQxCG5VG4?rel=0&autoplay=1
Nice clip, but still wondering whether your wealthy client really would prefer to leave NZ and pay for the CGT in Australia or in the UK or in most other European countries instead. What about the inheritance tax in the US? He loves that?
It is so hard to find a country with good education, healthcare for all and an adequate standard of security with lower taxes than here ... I guess, sure, everybody rich could go to Bermuda, but isn't this the place where funny stuff happens and ships, planes and people disappear?
It's nice to live in a good country where democracy still works (well, compared to many other places), social tensions are still manageable, the health system is not too bad considering the cost and even the education system manages to crank out literates as long as parents and teachers work together. And you don't even need to pay a personal army to guarantee your safety, either. Talk with people coming from SA to understand what I mean ...
Actually - if people think that the tax is too high to live here, than I think they just should go. No need for funny clips or further discussion ... and I am sure plenty of capable, skilled and hard working people from (e.g.) Ukraine, India and China are more than happy to come instead and work and pay the taxes as they are due.
This is not the time to whinge ...
Quote from: BlackPeter on Apr 29, 2023, 05:40 PMNice clip, but still wondering whether your wealthy client really would prefer to leave NZ and pay for the CGT in Australia or in the UK or in most other European countries instead.
Yes. I view not having to pay CGT or wealth taxes as compensation to those of us who still choose to live here. If the tax situation was the same everywhere I can think of no reason to stay in NZ. You could choose to live anywhere in Europe and live a life filled with culture, art, architecture, museums etc and be a short plane/train ride away from incredible islands and beaches. You can move to Australia if you like warm weather, or Canada if you like to ski. Even the lifestyle on offer in Asia is better for the wealthy - everyone has live in domestic help and drivers for instance.
Pretty much the only thing stopping me from moving to a Gold Coast apartment with an ocean view and an infinity pool is the taxes. Change that, and I'll be gone. The younger generation is almost all grown up now, I'm probably likely to see more of them having the attraction of the Gold Coast on offer than I would if I stayed in NZ. I'm probably likely to see more of them in Australia as I don't see NZ offering them much either, so they will probably emigrate too. Hopefully to Queensland lol
Not sure why people think there is no CGT here as there are CGT taxes here already.
Then there is the discount NZD to the Dixie and the Euro or Pound..
Economists and there fixation with asset prices equating to Income... and the lack of multi demensional structures in ... oh the real point is well constructed here...
take that you lying bastard parker and the communists...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131896834/damien-grant-we-should-be-celebrating-the-rich-not-hitting-them-with-more-taxes
Quote from: KW on Apr 30, 2023, 02:55 PMYes. I view not having to pay CGT or wealth taxes as compensation to those of us who still choose to live here. If the tax situation was the same everywhere I can think of no reason to stay in NZ. You could choose to live anywhere in Europe and live a life filled with culture, art, architecture, museums etc and be a short plane/train ride away from incredible islands and beaches. You can move to Australia if you like warm weather, or Canada if you like to ski. Even the lifestyle on offer in Asia is better for the wealthy - everyone has live in domestic help and drivers for instance.
Pretty much the only thing stopping me from moving to a Gold Coast apartment with an ocean view and an infinity pool is the taxes. Change that, and I'll be gone. The younger generation is almost all grown up now, I'm probably likely to see more of them having the attraction of the Gold Coast on offer than I would if I stayed in NZ. I'm probably likely to see more of them in Australia as I don't see NZ offering them much either, so they will probably emigrate too. Hopefully to Queensland lol
That's sad.
Look, personally we could stay in NZ (and yes, we do like the place, we have family here and there are still amazing nature experiences, even if we find it difficult to get used to the Kiwi habit of first building a 6 ft fence to keep the neighbourhood out instead of enjoying life with them), we could live in Singapore - and hey, they do have an amazing cultural life, nice weather, amazing food ... and so many great places only a wee hop away (Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam), and yes, we do have family there.
We could move (back) to Europe - and yes, the food is cheaper as well as better over there and yes, culture over there is not just talked over, it exists) ... and we have family there as well)
But hey, I am sure we will end up doing one of these things (i.e. NZ, Singapore, Europe) ... but whatever it is, it will have nothing to do with the tax rate in NZ or the respective country we might move to.
Life is too short to worry about this non sense. Are you really prepared to miss out on the things you really want to have for some measly pieces of silver? Maybe this explains why Kiwis try to keep the neighbours as far from each other than any possible?
Quote from: BlackPeter on Apr 30, 2023, 05:43 PMLife is too short to worry about this non sense. Are you really prepared to miss out on the things you really want to have for some measly pieces of silver? Maybe this explains why Kiwis try to keep the neighbours as far from each other than any possible?
When I moved back from Australia I didnt think I was missing out on a lot. And but for Jacinda Ardern and Co I probably would be pretty happy still. But the country has gone to hell over the last 3 years, and now I do realise what I am missing out on. Like a functioning health system for starters. And not having to drive everywhere at 30 kmph. And not being rorted an arm and a leg everytime I want to get on an airplane and go somewhere. And the crime is so bad its like living in Detroit. And I miss being an English speaking country instead of the bizarre pidgen version people seem to speak these days. I've been looking at real estate in Queensland and its just reminded me of how much nicer everything is over there.
The taxes are a huge factor for me because almost all my income is capital gains. So I prefer not to surrender 30%+ of it to the Govt. But if that changes, then I will be choosing my next place of residence based on lifestyle factors not tax ones. And I don't think I will be the only one.
I'm still young enough to go back to Australia and funnel everything through a self managed super fund for the next 10-15 years and avoid paying taxes that way. CGT within a super fund is only 10% for assets held longer than a year. The Australian tax system is quite complicated, but it has a lot of tax minimisation opportunities that are not available in NZ. This is probably what a Govt as financially illiiterate as Labour won't understand - in places like Australia, nobody pays the full tax rate. You have salary sacrificing, super concessions, self managed super funds, tax rebates, tax credits, negative gearing against personal income ...... Even the middle class will be better off organising their tax affairs in Australia than staying in NZ, without even factoring in the higher incomes.
""Government debt is forecast to be nearly 42% of GDP by next year."
its a run away train ... LBA they will tax everything they can from their paint it RED report...
LBA (lazy bunch of A....) ... get out and create and sell stuff...its what makes an economy grow...
Quote from: KW on Apr 30, 2023, 07:17 PMWhen I moved back from Australia I didnt think I was missing out on a lot. And but for Jacinda Ardern and Co I probably would be pretty happy still. But the country has gone to hell over the last 3 years, and now I do realise what I am missing out on. Like a functioning health system for starters. And not having to drive everywhere at 30 kmph. And not being rorted an arm and a leg everytime I want to get on an airplane and go somewhere. And the crime is so bad its like living in Detroit. And I miss being an English speaking country instead of the bizarre pidgen version people seem to speak these days. I've been looking at real estate in Queensland and its just reminded me of how much nicer everything is over there.
The taxes are a huge factor for me because almost all my income is capital gains. So I prefer not to surrender 30%+ of it to the Govt. But if that changes, then I will be choosing my next place of residence based on lifestyle factors not tax ones. And I don't think I will be the only one.
I'm still young enough to go back to Australia and funnel everything through a self managed super fund for the next 10-15 years and avoid paying taxes that way. CGT within a super fund is only 10% for assets held longer than a year. The Australian tax system is quite complicated, but it has a lot of tax minimisation opportunities that are not available in NZ. This is probably what a Govt as financially illiiterate as Labour won't understand - in places like Australia, nobody pays the full tax rate. You have salary sacrificing, super concessions, self managed super funds, tax rebates, tax credits, negative gearing against personal income ...... Even the middle class will be better off organising their tax affairs in Australia than staying in NZ, without even factoring in the higher incomes.
Wait to you see their plans for Nz's new school curriculum. It literally will center on the Treaty of Waitangi.
So that's oil and gas gone. Water going to maori via Te Mana o te Wai, health split into Maori and Other authorities, agriculture to be quartered via Climate Change decisions, a PM who can't define what a "woman" is, police standing back while women get assaulted. And now a potential "wealth Tax" we all may as well pack our bags for Venezuela. Because it won't be worse than here.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 01, 2023, 05:05 PMWait to you see their plans for Nz's new school curriculum. It literally will center on the Treaty of Waitangi.
So that's oil and gas gone. Water going to maori via Te Mana o te Wai, health split into Maori and Other authorities, agriculture to be quartered via Climate Change decisions, a PM who can't define what a "woman" is, police standing back while women get assaulted. And now a potential "wealth Tax" we all may as well pack our bags for Venezuela. Because it won't be worse than here.
Well, for me - if the choice is Venezuela or NZ, I know where I will go, and it won't be one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Venezuela ranks an a scale of 14 out of 100 on the corruption index, only Somalia (12), South Sudan (13) and Syria (13 as well) are slightly worse.
Anyway - each for their own, when is your plane leaving? I hear Somalia might be even more interesting (slightly more corrupt), and they can even throw in a nice little war.
I respectfully suggest you do that then. Funny how the people who are most vocal with their threats to leave NZ, never actually do it.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 01, 2023, 05:05 PMwe all may as well pack our bags for Venezuela. Because it won't be worse than here.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 01, 2023, 05:23 PMWell, for me - if the choice is Venezuela or NZ, I know where I will go, and it won't be one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Venezuela ranks an a scale of 14 out of 100 on the corruption index, only Somalia (12), South Sudan (13) and Syria (13 as well) are slightly worse.
Anyway - each for their own, when is your plane leaving? I hear Somalia might be even more interesting (slightly more corrupt), and they can even throw in a nice little war.
so. Corruption is your measure. Who has just given and accepted party political donations in nz?
Quote from: Untamed on May 01, 2023, 05:39 PMI respectfully suggest you do that then. Funny how the people who are most vocal with their threats to leave NZ, never actually do it.
I've already left nz. Came back and now reconsidering. 1 family member has already gone. Another will be leaving with in the year.
OK, but I'm betting you didn't go to Venezuela. So maybe stop with the dramatic "anywhere in the world would be better than NZ" narrative. Its nonsense and we all know it. The grass is always greener on the other side, until you get there.
I'm not saying there are not other places in the world that would be great places to live - of course there are. New Zealand is not perfect, but its a damned sight better place to live than many countries.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 01, 2023, 08:46 PMI've already left nz. Came back and now reconsidering. 1 family member has already gone. Another will be leaving with in the year.
Quote from: Untamed on May 01, 2023, 09:02 PMOK, but I'm betting you didn't go to Venezuela. So maybe stop with the dramatic "anywhere in the world would be better than NZ" narrative. Its nonsense and we all know it. The grass is always greener on the other side, until you get there.
I'm not saying there are not other places in the world that would be great places to live - of course there are. New Zealand is not perfect, but its a damned sight better place to live than many countries.
I've been to venezuela and loved it. Somalia i haven't been to. Tempting!
Quote from: Minimoke on May 01, 2023, 08:43 PMso. Corruption is your measure. Who has just given and accepted party political donations in nz?
Quite dumb comment if I may say so.
There is obviously no country in the world free of corruption, given that they are all run by humans (though I hear that the reminder of the animal kingdom is corruptible as well :P ). Of course is there corruption in NZ as anywhere else, but it is the degree which makes the difference.
A bit of pain is something most people are able to take, excruciating pain however not so.
Same thing with corruption, which creates in countries like Venezuela a dysfunctional society - this makes it that corrosive.
You didn't tell us though, when your plane is leaving - I can hardly wait to get your regular reports from the land of your desires :P ;
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 02, 2023, 08:54 AMQuite dumb comment if I may say so.
There is obviously no country in the world free of corruption, given that they are all run by humans (though I hear that the reminder of the animal kingdom is corruptible as well :P ). Of course is there corruption in NZ as anywhere else, but it is the degree which makes the difference.
A bit of pain is something most people are able to take, excruciating pain however not so.
Same thing with corruption, which creates in countries like Venezuela a dysfunctional society - this makes it that corrosive.
You didn't tell us though, when your plane is leaving - I can hardly wait to get your regular reports from the land of your desires :P ;
You are welcome to say whatever you please.
However I'd point out that corruption, and other negative things, don't just happen over night. They are an evolutionary thing. Often sparked with one opportunity that a person gets away with. Which leads to another and another until the whole thing starts to break down.
This process of erosion (not just corruption, but democracy as well) is something we are starting to experience in New Zealand. Some can't see it. Some choose to ignore it and some choose to quieten those who raise it.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 02, 2023, 09:42 AMThis process of erosion (not just corruption, but democracy as well) is something we are starting to experience in New Zealand. Some can't see it. Some choose to ignore it and some choose to quieten those who raise it.
I see NZ heading more down the path of South Africa and ultimately, Zimbabwe. As the productive members of society flee, those left in charge ensure that the country becomes a failed state. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen".
Quote from: KW on May 02, 2023, 11:32 AMI see NZ heading more down the path of South Africa and ultimately, Zimbabwe. As the productive members of society flee, those left in charge ensure that the country becomes a failed state. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen".
Jeez - I guess we are now far off the thread title, but this is a particularly ridiculous political statement.
Wondering what must have happened to you - but your comparison with South Africa (if you are referring to the apartheid years) and Zimbabwe are extremely offensive to anybody who had to suffer under the respective regimes and the only thing they demonstrate is your cluelessness.
You clearly have no idea how racist autocracies work ... and how it feels to live in them.
Try to get out of your rabbit hole ...
Quote from: KW on May 02, 2023, 11:32 AMI see NZ heading more down the path of South Africa and ultimately, Zimbabwe. As the productive members of society flee, those left in charge ensure that the country becomes a failed state. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen".
They may not be bad comparisons. But some from Venezuela still apply. Like back just a couple of decades ago they passed the Social Responsibility on Radio and Television law which legally prevented media and the internet from broadcasting not only "hate" speech but also words that altered public order or caused anxiety. Sound familiar. Or how the goverenmtn tried to take more control of what was said in the media - like we did with the public interest journalism fund.
Then there was the centralised control of universities - muck like what has happened to our polytechs. The temporary granting of supreme powers (much like we have under current covid laws) , govt overview of banking (like we are doing with our banking review and threats), increasing taxes for flood recovery, an attempt to stop politicians voting against bills (like how we tried to sneak through the entrenchment clause), taking of land deemed under utilised, in the same way we take farmers land and deem it an areas of cultural interest.
Wedges. Thin ends!
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 02, 2023, 11:49 AMJeez - I guess we are now far off the thread title, but this is a particularly ridiculous political statement.
Wondering what must have happened to you - but your comparison with South Africa (if you are referring to the apartheid years) and Zimbabwe are extremely offensive to anybody who had to suffer under the respective regimes and the only thing they demonstrate is your cluelessness.
No, I am referring to their current condition. Maybe you should google what that is like.
This is what happens when productive people flee the country. https://theconversation.com/south-africas-economy-has-taken-some-heavy-body-blows-can-it-recover-183165
Zimbabwe ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe#:
In its early years, Zimbabwe experienced strong growth and development. Wheat production for non-drought years was proportionally higher than previously, and the tobacco industry was thriving. Economic indicators for the country were strong.
From 1991 to 1996, the Zimbabwean ZANU–PF President Robert Mugabe embarked on an Economic Structural Adjustment Programme (ESAP) that had serious negative effects on Zimbabwe's economy. In the late 1990s, the government instituted land reforms intended to evict white landowners and place their holdings in the hands of black farmers. However, many of the new farmers had no experience or training in agriculture. From 1999 to 2009, the country experienced a sharp drop in food production and in all other sectors. The banking sector also collapsed, with farmers unable to obtain loans for capital development. Food output fell 45%, and manufacturing output fell by 29% in 2005, 26% in 2006 and 28% in 2007. Unemployment rose to 80%.[13] Life expectancy dropped.[14] White people fled the country in masses taking much of the nation's capital.
Just substitute "evicting white landowners" for "closing down 25% of farms and forcing the rest to sell of their land to Chinese investors to grow trees for carbon credits" and you end up in the same place. NZ is an agricultural nation, and there is no industry that is capable of taking over from agriculture to support the economy. So when it goes, so does NZ's prosperity. There will be no private capital available to fund investment in business because all the wealthy have fled, and anyone who aspires to build a business will do so elsewhere where there is a bigger and more affluent market and where the Govt doesnt stick its hand out to confiscate the wealth you've worked hard to build.
Quote from: KW on May 02, 2023, 01:11 PMNo, I am referring to their current condition. Maybe you should google what that is like.
This is what happens when productive people flee the country. https://theconversation.com/south-africas-economy-has-taken-some-heavy-body-blows-can-it-recover-183165
Zimbabwe ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe#:
In its early years, Zimbabwe experienced strong growth and development. Wheat production for non-drought years was proportionally higher than previously, and the tobacco industry was thriving. Economic indicators for the country were strong.
From 1991 to 1996, the Zimbabwean ZANU–PF President Robert Mugabe embarked on an Economic Structural Adjustment Programme (ESAP) that had serious negative effects on Zimbabwe's economy. In the late 1990s, the government instituted land reforms intended to evict white landowners and place their holdings in the hands of black farmers. However, many of the new farmers had no experience or training in agriculture. From 1999 to 2009, the country experienced a sharp drop in food production and in all other sectors. The banking sector also collapsed, with farmers unable to obtain loans for capital development. Food output fell 45%, and manufacturing output fell by 29% in 2005, 26% in 2006 and 28% in 2007. Unemployment rose to 80%.[13] Life expectancy dropped.[14] White people fled the country in masses taking much of the nation's capital.
Same in NZ where the govt is proposing to take all water resources away from locals and give the control / decision making on all waters (as defined by the Resource management Act) over to iwi who have no more skill at running water resources as anyone else.
Climate change policy is specifically targeting a reduction in food output. And Fair Pay Agreements do not promote productivity or assist manufacturing in any way at all.
Alreasdy we have approx 700,000 new zealnaders living in Australia and probably around another 300,000 living oelsewher offshore. 1million people offsore with 5.6m onshore. Lets see how those numbers keep tracking over time.
In the year ended Feb 2023 we lost net 17,300 new Zealanders. Most resident visas are people coming in from India, China and Phillipnes. So its fair to say we are more attractive than those countries.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 02, 2023, 01:46 PMIn the year ended Feb 2023 we lost net 17,300 new Zealanders. Most resident visas are people coming in from India, China and Phillipnes. So its fair to say we are more attractive than those countries.
And those immigrants are coming here because they want the opportunity to build wealth for themselves and their families. As other NZers leave they will soon get sick of bearing the brunt of paying for the welfare state and compensating Maori for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with, and once they have citizenship (eg. the next generation) they will be leaving too.
Quote from: KW on May 02, 2023, 01:53 PMAnd those immigrants are coming here because they want the opportunity to build wealth for themselves and their families. As other NZers leave they will soon get sick of bearing the brunt of paying for the welfare state and compensating Maori for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with, and once they have citizenship (eg. the next generation) they will be leaving too.
Well, sounds like we clearly have too many whingers here. Are you really promising they are leaving? Are you a woman of your word? I wish you well.
There is however a old tale which comes to mind:
Old woman living halfway between North City and South City. A young couple moves from North to South and meeting her, they ask how it is in South City. Old Woman asks - how was it in North City?
Answer: nice, friendly and helpful people. Old woman says, well, South City is exactly the same.
Couple of days later a middle aged woman passes by and asks the old women, how is it in South City?
Question: How was it in North City?
Answer: Unfriendly people, government is always fleecing you and nobody was looking after me, but myself.
Old woman says ... well, its exactly the same way in South City.
Have a think about the story. Hint: The old woman was saying the truth - in both cases.
This thread is starting to become controversial. Please try to keep your posts focussed on facts and avoid insulting other posters or their posts. IMO you are very unlikely to convince anyone to change their views on matters like this, try not to fall out over it.
Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/
"More than 12,000 millionaires left France in 2016, according to research group New World Wealth. In total, they say the country experienced a net outflow of more than 60,000 millionaires between 2000 and 2016. When these people left, France lost not only the revenue generated from the wealth tax, but all the others too, including income tax and VAT.
French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. In a paper published in 2008 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228281017_The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_French_Wealth_Tax), he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year. What's more ISF fraud mainly involving an underassessment of property assets was estimated at around 28 per cent of total revenues."
Interesting that yesterday Tuku Morgan has come out and said that at the end of the 3 waters set up Maori will own the water and he is now looking at ways to charge power companies for the use of that water.
So back on topic, and using David Clarks wealth research how wealthy do we think that will make Maori?
It would be a very difficult calculation as the Report has introduced this concept of Economic wealth which is to include the un-realised increase in value of an asset.
I suppose wealth would be calculated something like this:
- a cup of water falls as snow in the mountains and as snow has zero value
- on the waikato river there are 8 hydro dams. So presumably power companies can be charged at each dam, because each dam is using that water
- so the snow melts and enters Lake taupo and we now have our 1 cup of water.
- say at each damn each hydro is charged $1.00. That would give us a potential value of that water at $8.00
- So we now have an asset sitting in Lake Taupo worth $8.00 of unrealised income. So it has gone from $0.00 to $8.00. Now in my books that is an exceptional potential rate of return. Especially when absolutely nothing is done to create that value. And as the assets flows through the system absolutely nothing happens to degrade or depreciate the value of that asset. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to be done (ie no expences at all) to get that asset from Lake Taupo to Port Waikato.
And that's how wealth is going to be created in New Zealand
The position of many Maori commentators is that they already do, and always have, owned the water.
Quote from: Raven on May 03, 2023, 10:36 AMThe position of many Maori commentators is that they already do, and always have, owned the water.
At common law, broadly, no one owns water. At best a person may have certain rights to that water. But with that comes responsibilities. Eg not to pollute it. These rights are uslauuy tied to land ownership and riparina rights.
And claims to "ownership" would have been made during the Foreshore and Seabed debates (and the subsequent marine Act. Which one way or another resulted in rights being given to things essentially growing in the sand / rocks. But people still had a right to navigate over those things. Ie float over water.
Given the government legislated that no one owns the foreshore and see bed, then it is highly unlikely any claim to ownership of water would survive.
Of course a government could legislate that water is capable of ownership. But this would have major ramifications in terms of foreshore and seabed along with the Resource management Act. AS well as rewriting common law and potentially interfering with basic, but well established, human rights
But if someone can own water then the y can expec tto become veryt wealthy
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 02, 2023, 08:54 AMQuite dumb comment if I may say so.
There is obviously no country in the world free of corruption, given that they are all run by humans (though I hear that the reminder of the animal kingdom is corruptible as well :P ). Of course is there corruption in NZ as anywhere else, but it is the degree which makes the difference.
A bit of pain is something most people are able to take, excruciating pain however not so.
Same thing with corruption, which creates in countries like Venezuela a dysfunctional society - this makes it that corrosive.
You didn't tell us though, when your plane is leaving - I can hardly wait to get your regular reports from the land of your desires :P ;
We can have wealth created through fair means or foul. What level of corruption are you comfortable with.
Yesterday we had the one of the highest positions in our parliament, the Speaker hiding a MP's letter of resignation which would see her removed from the house. It is obvious he knows she has resigned from her party because he now considers her to be an independent MP. This ought to trigger our "waka jumping" laws.
Accusing the Speaking of lying to the House may be a step too far. It may be wrong in fact but the perception is real.
The alternative is that the MP concerned has lied to the speaker. She has publicly said she has resigned from the Party and is joining another party. The alternative to a lie is that she is manipulating our laws that sees her retain a seat in Parliament, continue to receive a Mps pay and occupy a position the NZ electorate did not vote for.
This move distorts the proportionality of our House of representative. The NZ electorate only gave the minor party concerned 2 seats in the house. These acts have increased their proportionality by 50% - a very significant increase.
This level of "corruption" sits very uncomfortably with me. Such shenanigans don't give me comfort that we have a level playing field for becoming wealthy.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 09:17 AMWe can have wealth created through fair means or foul. What level of corruption are you comfortable with.
Yesterday we had the one of the highest positions in our parliament, the Speaker hiding a MP's letter of resignation which would see her removed from the house. It is obvious he knows she has resigned from her party because he now considers her to be an independent MP. This ought to trigger our "waka jumping" laws.
Accusing the Speaking of lying to the House may be a step too far. It may be wrong in fact but the perception is real.
The alternative is that the MP concerned has lied to the speaker. She has publicly said she has resigned from the Party and is joining another party. The alternative to a lie is that she is manipulating our laws that sees her retain a seat in Parliament, continue to receive a Mps pay and occupy a position the NZ electorate did not vote for.
This move distorts the proportionality of our House of representative. The NZ electorate only gave the minor party concerned 2 seats in the house. These acts have increased their proportionality by 50% - a very significant increase.
This level of "corruption" sits very uncomfortably with me. Such shenanigans don't give me comfort that we have a level playing field for becoming wealthy.
Look, I am sure the story will play out, and I just find it hilarious that a former member of Labour and a current member of the Maori party demonstrates that much bad faith acting in public. Good character seems to be irrelevant for this type of politicians, and in my view only turds can vote for her come next election.
However - no matter, how this plays out and what the speaker knew and should have done (not a specialist for ACTs favorite bill), I see a lot of bad faith acting, and potentially the speaker ignoring or misinterpreting a law, but it has clearly nothing to do with wealth taxes.
Could you move your outrage to a more appropriate thread?
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 04, 2023, 10:55 AMLook, I am sure the story will play out, and I just find it hilarious that a former member of Labour and a current member of the Maori party demonstrates that much bad faith acting in public. Good character seems to be irrelevant for this type of politicians, and in my view only turds can vote for her come next election.
However - no matter, how this plays out and what the speaker knew and should have done (not a specialist for ACTs favorite bill), I see a lot of bad faith acting, and potentially the speaker ignoring or misinterpreting a law, but it has clearly nothing to do with wealth taxes.
Could you move your outrage to a more appropriate thread?
Who do you think will be creating the wealth tax laws?
Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 10:58 AMWho do you think will be creating the wealth tax laws?
A bunch of well paid bureaucrats advised by the government of the day.
Look - your stance is quite ridiculous ...
We do live clearly in one of the better systems. Sure - it is not perfect, but this is the thing with all systems run by humans.
Currently we have a left wing government. We might not like that, but they are absolutely legitimate in power and while they demonstrate from time to time some incompetence, so did previous conservative governments. No difference.
Our democracy works - and if you are constantly trying to undermine the government, than you are acting just corrosive. Like this idiot Trump in the States or any other autocrat who sees his position endangered. Nothing good can come out of that.
Feel free to point out better solutions if you disagree with the government, feel free to highlight their mistakes, but constantly seeding distrust on people who just have a different political view than you just badly reflects on yourself.
Get used to democracy.
Best thing is - anybody who does not like this system here is allowed to leave, making it hard to understand why people prefer to try and corrode the system here with quite ridiculous comments instead of going to a place they like. If you think a better place exists, than it is just a plane hop away. The world is your oyster - no need to turn it with corrosion and undeserved distrust into a worse place.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 04, 2023, 11:25 AMA bunch of well paid bureaucrats advised by the government of the day.
Look - your stance is quite ridiculous ...
We do live clearly in one of the better systems. Sure - it is not perfect, but this is the thing with all systems run by humans.
Currently we have a left wing government. We might not like that, but they are absolutely legitimate in power and while they demonstrate from time to time some incompetence, so did previous conservative governments. No difference.
Our democracy works - and if you are constantly trying to undermine the government, than you are acting just corrosive. Like this idiot Trump in the States or any other autocrat who sees his position endangered. Nothing good can come out of that.
Feel free to point out better solutions if you disagree with the government, feel free to highlight their mistakes, but constantly seeding distrust on people who just have a different political view than you just badly reflects on yourself.
Get used to democracy.
Best thing is - anybody who does not like this system here is allowed to leave, making it hard to understand why people prefer to try and corrode the system here with quite ridiculous comments instead of going to a place they like. If you think a better place exists, than it is just a plane hop away. The world is your oyster - no need to turn it with corrosion and undeserved distrust into a worse place.
Suggesting people up sticks and leave is not a very constructive way to have a discussion.
New Zealands landscape was in part created by seismic change. The rest is due to glacial slow erosion and the drip, drip drip one drop at a time erosion by water. So slow you don't even notice it happening. Until one day you open your curtains and see the world view you once had has now gone.
We can choose to ignore politics and try to quash those that have an interest. Or we can take an interst and try to raise and discuss the issues.
You may think beaurocrats will create our tax laws. You are wrong. Sure they will draft them. But they will draft them on the instructions of the government of the day (along with their own wee tinkering that will see them safe in their jobs until well after the next government is installed.
We should be looking very closely and thinking about where our wealth is going to go and how we are going to be taxed.
The Greens have already come out and said they favour a 1% tax on wealth over net wealth of $1m and 2% for assets over $2m.
We now have Parker flying the flag that unrealized profit on assets you hold should be taxed.
And the Maori party who don't yet appear focused on a wealth tax pers se. But their increase in cost though minimum income levels, increase minimum wage, maori pay equity, increased student allowance and the like will have to be paid from somewhere.
We should be alert to what shady deals these folks (and other political parties) have up their sleeves because we run the risk of having our own personal hard earned wealth eroded. And worse yet given to people who have done nothing to earn it. All the while the landscape we once knew gets eroded away.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 12:56 PMSuggesting people up sticks and leave is not a very constructive way to have a discussion.
New Zealands landscape was in part created by seismic change. The rest is due to glacial slow erosion and the drip, drip drip one drop at a time erosion by water. So slow you don't even notice it happening. Until one day you open your curtains and see the world view you once had has now gone.
We can choose to ignore politics and try to quash those that have an interest. Or we can take an interst and try to raise and discuss the issues.
You may think beaurocrats will create our tax laws. You are wrong. Sure they will draft them. But they will draft them on the instructions of the government of the day (along with their own wee tinkering that will see them safe in their jobs until well after the next government is installed.
We should be looking very closely and thinking about where our wealth is going to go and how we are going to be taxed.
The Greens have already come out and said they favour a 1% tax on wealth over net wealth of $1m and 2% for assets over $2m.
We now have Parker flying the flag that unrealized profit on assets you hold should be taxed.
And the Maori party who don't yet appear focused on a wealth tax pers se. But their increase in cost though minimum income levels, increase minimum wage, maori pay equity, increased student allowance and the like will have to be paid from somewhere.
We should be alert to what shady deals these folks (and other political parties) have up their sleeves because we run the risk of having our own personal hard earned wealth eroded. And worse yet given to people who have done nothing to earn it. All the while the landscape we once knew gets eroded away.
Good - this is even on subject. Well done!
And absolutely - lets have a good political discussion, even without trying to undermine the other political side.
What do we want as a nation from the state? Education, Security, Healthcare, Infrastructure?
How do we want to fund that?
.. and how do we minimise inefficiencies on the way from inputs (taxes) to outputs (desired state services).
As far as I am concerned:
I do see lot of wasted as well as wrongly applied resources ... but this is not really relevant for this particular thread title, and neither for any particular government of the day.
I do see a tax system which focusses mainly on consumption (GST) and some parts of income (mainly from salaries and wages). I can feel with taxed salary earners, given that I used to come from their corner. Honestly - the taxes on income in NZ are very high (in comparison) and quite unfair e.g. to a sole earner who needs to fund his family.
I do see as well a system which is quite nice to people who are wealthy enough that they don't need anymore income from paid work. I personally enjoy this situation now, but I still think its unfair. Obviously - you could say I deserve it, given that the state used to squeeze me before ...
I am certainly not asking for overall tax increases ... I think our income tax is already ways too high, particularly considering that thanks to inflation more and more people move into the top tax brackets.
Our GSt is necessary, but in international comparison already at the upper level too (so, if anything I think we should reduce it),
... and I think it only fair if we would fill the gap we created by reducing above with a fair and efficient capital gains tax. I realise however that this might sound like an oximoron, however - I have seen reasonably efficient and fair implementations of capital gains taxes working (e.g. in Germany). It is doable. Still better however would be an inflation adjusted capital gains tax, but maybe this is asking for too much :):
Before you get all excited..
you need a multi dim model of all the taxes inside the system and the flow of money through it.
SInce this model is not something the public, nor the Polies, Nor the Political parties, nor treasury or the RNBZ have; its pointless of this wonderful stuff about tax and how do you afford this and that.
Acually Roger understood this and AI (Hive data models) over time will allow information to be gathered and modelled in ways humans cannot at the moment.
Its almost silly to take old single DIM[n] models and try to apply them to the future.
Australia just released its budget with big tax cuts for upper income earners. The new tax rate of 30% will apply from $45k to $200k. On top of the first $18k being tax free. This not only impacts income taxes, but the rate at which capital gains tax will be charged, at 50% of 30% (ie. 15%) for assets held longer than a year. Sure beats NZ 100% capital gains on property held for less than 10 years.
Good luck to NZ trying to keep workers.
Quote from: KW on May 10, 2023, 02:33 PMAustralia just released its budget with big tax cuts for upper income earners. The new tax rate of 30% will apply from $45k to $200k. On top of the first $18k being tax free. This not only impacts income taxes, but the rate at which capital gains tax will be charged, at 50% of 30% (ie. 15%) for assets held longer than a year. Sure beats NZ 100% capital gains on property held for less than 10 years.
Good luck to NZ trying to keep workers.
Good stuff ... my favourite fishing spot got anyway a bit too crowded recently ;) ;
But anyway - I think NZ will be better off if we lose the people who are only here to save paying taxes. I guess - first they are not very intelligent in the first place (otherwise they would live in Singapore or the Caymans, if paying low taxes is the only thing they care about) and second - they are clearly not very community minded.
Win-Win.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 10, 2023, 04:44 PMGood stuff ... my favourite fishing spot got anyway a bit too crowded recently ;) ;
But anyway - I think NZ will be better off if we lose the people who are only here to save paying taxes. I guess - first they are not very intelligent in the first place (otherwise they would live in Singapore or the Caymans, if paying low taxes is the only thing they care about) and second - they are clearly not very community minded.
Win-Win.
The good news is that without doctors and nurses most Kiwi's will be dead pretty quickly, so your fishing spots will be even quieter.
Quote from: KW on May 10, 2023, 05:00 PMThe good news is that without doctors and nurses most Kiwi's will be dead pretty quickly, so your fishing spots will be even quieter.
Only less doctors and nurses who care more about their taxes than their patients. I really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and quality of life ...
Looking at Europe as example - I remember that Sweden (and other parts of Scandinavia) used to have for decades really shocking taxrates (90% + - including compulsory social insurance payments) ... and while I know that some games started to go on with qualified staff asking for part of their salary going into overseas accounts - the healthcare in Sweden was always better than it is currently in NZ!
But hey - each to their own. Just stop this non sense scare mongering game ... nobody cares if some rich people leave to die alone in some far away country.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 10, 2023, 05:09 PMI really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and quality of life ...
Not really. Its just that all of those things are better in Australia. As is the weather and the beaches. Its not like anyone is talking about moving to South Sudan.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 10, 2023, 05:09 PMOnly less doctors and nurses who care more about their taxes than their patients. I really think you overrate the importance of the tax rate and you underrate things like personal safety, family values and quality of life ...
Looking at Europe as example - I remember that Sweden (and other parts of Scandinavia) used to have for decades really shocking taxrates (90% + - including compulsory social insurance payments) ... and while I know that some games started to go on with qualified staff asking for part of their salary going into overseas accounts - the healthcare in Sweden was always better than it is currently in NZ!
But hey - each to their own. Just stop this non sense scare mongering game ... nobody cares if some rich people leave to die alone in some far away country.
I'm not a small person, but you won't catch me walking alone in the CBD at night. Dont get me started on family values - have you seen what the ministry of Education id putting out? And quality of life is eroding in a two tier democracy.
All of these things erode social wealth. Which can be compnesated to some degree by cash /asset wealth. But if more eof that is taken via greater tax rate then the incetive to remain here disappears.
Doctors and nurses invest a great deal of personal debt to become skilled and qualified. It is incumbent on them to market their skills to those who are prepared to pay for those things and thus reduce their personal debt and increase their personal wealth. Unless we expect them to work for Medics Without Borders.
Quote from: KW on May 10, 2023, 06:25 PMNot really. Its just that all of those things are better in Australia. As is the weather and the beaches. Its not like anyone is talking about moving to South Sudan.
Agreed. Hard to see a better "quality of life" in NZ when when we have a flood of 501s, ram raids out of control, gangs a law unto themselves, police cuddling criminals, weather bombs, politics of division, student politicians pushing student agendas like wealth taxes ... and the list goes on ... and that is not mentioning some of the points you touched on. I know a few that have gone to Oz recently....it is very tempting. And it's not just because of tax rates....as President Trump said "everything woke turns to shit" and I don't want to be the guy funding that. Much like here and in NZ, 20% do 80% of the work. Under certain circumstances I would happily turn my back on this country.
I see we have 100 wealthy morons in our fair land that wish we could be taxed more...
Can someone tell them that they are free to pay more tax whenever they wish. Didn't Cindy set up a hotline for this very purpose?
Also, seeing as they have so many of Queen's vouchers laying about, they could always take it upon themselves to actually do something for the poor they speak of...but then, that would involve getting their hands dirty or worse, having to mix with the plebs.
I guess that points to the heart of the issue. We have far too many communists/statists in this country, who believe that someone else should do whatever it is they think is a good thing.
Quote from: arekaywhy on May 11, 2023, 09:48 AMI see we have 100 wealthy morons in our fair land that wish we could be taxed more...
Can someone tell them that they are free to pay more tax whenever they wish. Didn't Cindy set up a hotline for this very purpose?
Also, seeing as they have so many of Queen's vouchers laying about, they could always take it upon themselves to actually do something for the poor they speak of...but then, that would involve getting their hands dirty or worse, having to mix with the plebs.
I guess that points to the heart of the issue. We have far too many communists/statists in this country, who believe that someone else should do whatever it is they think is a good thing.
So these 100 people think the government can spend there money better than they can. I disagree,
What they could do with their surplus cash is
- pay their workers more
- embark on philanthropic works (which many do) such as Charity Hospitals, Literacy / Numeracy camps, Fund literacy in prisons, fund driver license training for school kids etc
- deposit some into my bank account
And what happens if the wealthy pay more tax. It just allows the govern to spend it on all sorts of things. Like race based media support, foreign country donations, employ more consultants and public servants, subsidize the wealthy with things like EV rebates etc
Quote from: Minimoke on May 11, 2023, 10:05 AM...
- deposit some into my bank account
...
I favour this option personally
I read some years ago a survey where students had been asked to assess their performance compared to their peers, and 95% of them rated themselves as "above average". Quite funny, isn't it?
This is the reason we ask independent people to assess their performance.
Same with taxpayers ... hardly anybody complaining that they are taxed too little. On the other hand - the overwhelming majority is happily complaining that they get not enough from the state, no matter whether we talking building and maintaining infrastructure, maintaining social services, providing quality education, better policing, larger prisons or better health care.
Lets just say that people like to whinge, and this thread is a great example for that.
Of course - while we all love to take the states services for us as granted, we always see the potential to save money by cutting somebody else's services. I don't know why we need to pay any money for Auckland's infrastructure, and hey - I pay my doctor anyway privately, why would we need a public health system? Just kidding, but I guess you get the point.
And sometimes we might be right, but often (see number above as guidance) we are wrong.
However - this is not really what this thread is about. I don't think anybody here suggested that the state should further increase its tax take. The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be? ... or could it be improved by e.g. reducing the existing tax rates (like income tax and GST) and increasing instead the number of tax sources, like e.g. adding a capital gains tax.
I think this would be a fair point to discuss ... and maybe we could even do it with the good of the country in mind instead of everybody just looking at further reducing their personal tax bill.
But please - stop whinging - its not productive and it feels so sad. Humans are social beings ... and we need the society as everybody else does. So, lets not whinge about every cent we have to contribute.
Just saying ...
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 11, 2023, 11:37 AMI read some years ago a survey where students had been asked to assess their performance compared to their peers, and 95% of them rated themselves as "above average". Quite funny, isn't it?
This is the reason we ask independent people to assess their performance.
Same with taxpayers ... hardly anybody complaining that they are taxed too little. On the other hand - the overwhelming majority is happily complaining that they get not enough from the state, no matter whether we talking building and maintaining infrastructure, maintaining social services, providing quality education, better policing, larger prisons or better health care.
Lets just say that people like to whinge, and this thread is a great example for that.
Of course - while we all love to take the states services for us as granted, we always see the potential to save money by cutting somebody else's services. I don't know why we need to pay any money for Auckland's infrastructure, and hey - I pay my doctor anyway privately, why would we need a public health system? Just kidding, but I guess you get the point.
And sometimes we might be right, but often (see number above as guidance) we are wrong.
However - this is not really what this thread is about. I don't think anybody here suggested that the state should further increase its tax take. The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be? ... or could it be improved by e.g. reducing the existing tax rates (like income tax and GST) and increasing instead the number of tax sources, like e.g. adding a capital gains tax.
I think this would be a fair point to discuss ... and maybe we could even do it with the good of the country in mind instead of everybody just looking at further reducing their personal tax bill.
But please - stop whinging - its not productive and it feels so sad. Humans are social beings ... and we need the society as everybody else does. So, lets not whinge about every cent we have to contribute.
Just saying ...
I find it interesting that what I interpret as "discussion" you interpret as "whinging" but lets put that aside for a moment and get back to your post where you say
"The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be?"Before we can answer this question we have to understand what "fair" is. And I'll start the discussion by saying there is no such thing as "fair" Life isn't fair. Get over it. No point trying to achieve the undefinable.
Quote from: Minimoke on May 11, 2023, 12:03 PMI find it interesting that what I interpret as "discussion" you interpret as "whinging" but lets put that aside for a moment and get back to your post where you say "The question however is, is the current tax system as fair as it can be?"
Before we can answer this question we have to understand what "fair" is. And I'll start the discussion by saying there is no such thing as "fair" Life isn't fair. Get over it. No point trying to achieve the undefinable.
Right - life is not fair, but it is clearly possible to define shades of fairness.
Having one group of people paying everything and another group of people consuming everything e.g. would appear unfair, I assume we can agree on this?
Having everybody to pay for their own consumption (and user pays for common goods and services) appears fair, but only if you don't worry about responsibility and than - many people have money they didn't earn themselves - so, how is this fair that they can afford services other can't?
For me fairness would be everybody contributing at least a comparable proportion of their income (including capital gains) to the common good. I realize however that there is probably a higher number of wealthy people who consider a flat tax as fair. Funny that - one could even assume they are just selfish instead of fair?
Maybe we should all just look around which tax system we like most and then vote with our feet. I am sure politicians will listen, if they are interested.
From a personal perspective - at the time I moved to NZ I halved my salary but roughly kept paying the same tax I paid before. Call me an idiot - but there are really more important things to life than minimising taxes. For me its the package (cost of living, quality of life, family, lifestyle) which counts.
While I am not sure whether I will stay forever in NZ, I am sure that it will not be the tax system moving me out of the country ... which means, this tax system still gets my vote, but I could live with a sensible CGT as well :), and yes - I think it would be fairer if (realised) capital gains are considered income and taxed as appropriate;
If I were running the country, I would scrap all income and capital taxes and become the Monaco of the South. Like them, we could be a highly affluent society, with low unemployment, a world leading standard of living, and completely eliminate child poverty.
https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-living-conditions-in-monaco/
How come no one ever proposes that type of tax solution?
Quote from: KW on May 11, 2023, 01:50 PMIf I were running the country, I would scrap all income and capital taxes and become the Monaco of the South. Like them, we could be a highly affluent society, with low unemployment, a world leading standard of living, and completely eliminate child poverty.
https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-living-conditions-in-monaco/
How come no one ever proposes that type of tax solution?
If you draw a 800 km radius around Monaco (less than one hour flight), you have more than 200 million people in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France which Monaco can milk, and many of them rich enough to leave their money in Monaco's casino and night live.
How many people live in a 800 km radius around NZ who could do the same for us?
So - not quite comparable, if we need to force all of our potential punters to go first on a rather strenuous long haul flight.
But apart from that - you are not the first to suggest to operate this country a bit more intelligent than just killing of any sources of income and taxing what's left. Not sure about Monaco (which is anyway standalone not sustainable), but I would think it is possible for New Zealand to become the Switzerland of the South Pacific.
Invite the rich people into a safe home, look after their money ... and milk them.
Interesting scenario ... but probably a bit bigger than just debating wealth taxes - i.e. might deserve its own thread.
Quote from: BlackPeter on May 12, 2023, 11:02 AMIf you draw a 800 km radius around Monaco (less than one hour flight), you have more than 200 million people in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France which Monaco can milk, and many of them rich enough to leave their money in Monaco's casino and night live.
How many people live in a 800 km radius around NZ who could do the same for us?
That could be sold as a feature and not a bug. It also means that we are nowhere near the fallout zone of a nuclear war, nor likely to be invaded by a foreign nation. ;D
Just think of the amount of building and operating private airports and hangars for private planes that will be required. Jobs for all.
Quote from: KW on May 13, 2023, 01:44 PMThat could be sold as a feature and not a bug. It also means that we are nowhere near the fallout zone of a nuclear war, nor likely to be invaded by a foreign nation. ;D
Just think of the amount of building and operating private airports and hangars for private planes that will be required. Jobs for all.
Didn't say its a bug ... but its clearly something which makes any recommendation for NZ to follow the Monaco model sort of questionable.
But never mind ... they say as well that custard can be an excellent model for the human brain ... and hey - sometimes they are right :) ;
Honestly there is only one path for NZ and it back to the days of socalism... lenin could even make a come back ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/19/sir-keir-starmer-labour-party-wealth-tax/
Another point of view ... if the UK thinks its full of lefties they should check out NZ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/20/the-conservative-coalition-is-falling-apart-too-many-tories/
Quote from: Waltzing on May 21, 2023, 09:48 PMAnother point of view ... if the UK thinks its full of lefties they should check out NZ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/20/the-conservative-coalition-is-falling-apart-too-many-tories/
I guess given how hard the Tories worked to destroy the British economy (and hey, they did have some success, didn't they?) - what alternatives do the poor British people have?
If Britain turns left, than only one party is to blame - the Tories stopped thinking decades ago and destroyed with featuring selfishness of the rich and putting egomaniacs and liars as leaders what once was a "United" Kingdom and a "Great" Britain.
Only crumbles left of both. Really - who would care who is running in future Little England?
Western europen needs a strong UK ; a strong europe is critical for the future of us all....
Cant just leave it to the Southern irish to show the way forward... or the french...
Italy cant be relied on for anything other than opera and pasta...wine some lovely wines ...
Oh they are very fussy about certain cheeses apparently.
Quote from: Waltzing on May 22, 2023, 05:43 PMWestern europen needs a strong UK ; a strong europe is critical for the future of us all....
Cant just leave it to the Southern irish to show the way forward... or the french...
Italy cant be relied on for anything other than opera and pasta...wine some lovely wines ...
Oh they are very fussy about certain cheeses apparently.
Waltzing , most people would would be quite happy with a shiny red Ferrari in the garage .
OH GOSH!
ill let the great man speak for the car...
-------------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGb6NsE6AX8
Wealth tax backfiring in Norway as well. I expect they'll drop it soon
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/super-rich-abandoning-norway-at-record-rate-as-wealth-tax-rises-slightly
Someone please explain to Chloe the concept of a Real Estate Investment Trust.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-promise-wealth-tax-as-research-reveals-rich-stash-470b-in-trusts/5NGLCR7UV5B35M4DZDGOYVYOKI/
And farm trusts. And family trusts. And estate trusts. And Company Director trusts. Not everyone is "hiding assets" for the purpose of tax evasion.
Classic! !! actually shes on anti depress tab's and see a clinical head spacer every week... Politics is keeping her sane with something to do.....
and of course she secretly wants everyone to share vegie gardens ... traditional tribal gathering huts are bg on her list from IKEA...
only never seen one in sweden ...
Quote from: KW on Jun 07, 2023, 06:41 PMWealth tax backfiring in Norway as well. I expect they'll drop it soon
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/super-rich-abandoning-norway-at-record-rate-as-wealth-tax-rises-slightly
Interesting. I think a wealth tax is coming to NZ, Just a question of timing.
This is where you wait and hope ACT gets power.. Trust taxs are reduced to the same as companies and your transfer any losses in portfolios from your holding companies to your trusts.
DISC: Accounting Society research Paper re "Advanced Management of Trusts" 1995.
Yes people could actually think back then and multiple dimensional data structures existed in software for the last 35 years for consolidating reporting of multi entities into Tax Models.
We call them Journal Entity Modelling software Solutions.
Quote from: Shareguy on Jun 11, 2023, 08:14 AMInteresting. I think a wealth tax is coming to NZ, Just a question of timing.
Most likely, since the Labour Govt now has a solid established track record of implementing legislation that does the exact opposite of what it was intended to do.
If one comes in, I will be leaving. Not just because I don't want to pay tax on my assets (being income poor and asset rich I would take a hammering) but because everyone else will leave too. I shudder to think what NZ would look like if the 2% who pay 25% of all the tax, up sticks and take themselves, their businesses, their companies, their trusts, and their investments offshore. We are poor now, NZ cant afford to lose any more of the tax base to Australia or Singapore. The only option would then be to tax everyone left twice as much (bearing in mind that 50% of NZ households don't actually pay any net tax).
I agree KW. I think a lot of people will look at moving if this comes in.
John Key was also talking about this.
Greens have just released their tax policy
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132289369/greens-promise-tax-cuts-for-salaries-under-125000-and-385-per-week-income-guarantee?cid=app-iPhone&fbclid=IwAR07FxHTkC9tfcYPM--aQSrmjv6uiXyEoo_z9VDboDUCgvUFYOaNpE4Fkjo_aem_th_AXp3uMvZbgLvKn0YyTCiXzh_5MhWYg29mVNkxL7NPQAfdl_hvuHLtJ4oGU4itF3N7Y4
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/wealth-tax-hikes-will-pay-for-income-tax-cuts-and-welfare-overhaul-greens/FCRYI5THFVECPNUS2IB2N7REWA/
Hard to comment further without knowing what's excluded from their envy tax.
What I will say is this, I have seen farms that make less than a net 2.5% return on their market value when all costs are taken into account. So where does the farmer with a $10m farm get his $250,000 from to pay this envy tax?
These guys appear to want to create some form of utopia where we basically all live in a commune sharing our resources, a place where we pay people to breed and reward them whether they work or not.
1.5% tax on all assets in a Trust...gosh that's going ruffle more than a few feathers.
Quote from: Basil on Jun 11, 2023, 01:43 PMhttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/wealth-tax-hikes-will-pay-for-income-tax-cuts-and-welfare-overhaul-greens/FCRYI5THFVECPNUS2IB2N7REWA/
Hard to comment further without knowing what's excluded from their envy tax.
What I will say is this, I have seen farms that make less than a net 2.5% return on their market value when all costs are taken into account. So where does the farmer with a $10m farm get his $250,000 from to pay this envy tax?
These guys appear to want to create some form of utopia where we basically all live in a commune sharing our resources, a place where we pay people to breed and reward them whether they work or not.
1.5% tax on all assets in a Trust...gosh that's going ruffle more than a few feathers.
Looking good for accounts though. They will be able to start working on how to come up with all sorts of new valuations of worth for things.
PLEASE don't go down Balance's road Basil. This generalised beneficiary bashing is unfair, not to mention offensive and hurtful to many decent Kiwis who have, at some point in their lives, needed assistance. The vast majority of beneficiaries feel bad enough about that, without having to deal with the never-ending bashing.
You are better than that.
Quote from: Basil on Jun 11, 2023, 01:43 PMa place where we pay people to breed and reward them whether they work or not.
Quote from: Shareguy on Jun 11, 2023, 08:14 AMInteresting. I think a wealth tax is coming to NZ, Just a question of timing.
A wealth/envy tax is a complete brain dead idea which has been proved by overseas experience, most countries have ditched it because it doesn't work as intended. No surprises that a financially inept Green Party want to introduce one. Personally it won't affect my wife and I at their proposed levels, it would have 3 yrs ago but those days are long gone, sometimes less is more.
Quote from: Untamed on Jun 12, 2023, 09:36 AM...This generalised beneficiary bashing is unfair, ...
You have to admit, it is really hard not to think that when twits in Wellington start showing their (Red) colours
RED colors....
yup they need to change the color of their party flags ... who would vote RED!!!
maybe Purple ?
RED now equates to Commu.... that word....
Quote from: Basil on Jun 11, 2023, 01:43 PMThese guys appear to want to create some form of utopia where we basically all live in a commune sharing our resources, a place where we pay people to breed and reward them whether they work or not.
Labour is already doing that now. They pay a benefit to a single parent for three years now, with no requirement to look for work. Whereas a partnered woman only gets paid 26 weeks maternity benefit, and is expected to return to work after 12 months off (assuming her employer is generous enough to pay the other 6 months maternity benefit). So women are now far better off ditching the husband and the job and having babies on the benefit. Plus they get all the child support payments now, so even more financially beneficial if you ensure each kid has a different father.
Also note that Maori owned assets will be exempt from any taxes.
Quote from: KW on Jun 12, 2023, 01:50 PMLabour is already doing that now. They pay a benefit to a single parent for three years now, with no requirement to look for work. Whereas a partnered woman only gets paid 26 weeks maternity benefit, and is expected to return to work after 12 months off (assuming her employer is generous enough to pay the other 6 months maternity benefit). So women are now far better off ditching the husband and the job and having babies on the benefit. Plus they get all the child support payments now, so even more financially beneficial if you ensure each kid has a different father.
Also note that Maori owned assets will be exempt from any taxes.
So will charities. Just off to setup the "Minimoke Charitable Trust"
Here's the whole thing with lots of worked examples.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/17574/attachments/original/1686379147/Tax_Full_Policy_Document_v4.pdf?1686379147
I'll give an example. Jack and Jill have worked hard all their lives. Jack is an electrician working on his own and Jill has brought up their 4 kids who have all now flown the coup.
They have a nice $1.5m property in their family trust they've put there on the advice of their accountant to protect their family home if something went terribly wrong with their business. They now face a punitive tax of 1.5% on the full value of their home, $22,500 per annum because they had the foresight to pay it off fully.
Additionally, because their business is quite profitable and owned in a company they will pay more tax under these changes. Jack and Jill never qualified for working for families in their life because they worked hard and always believed if you chose to have children it was your own responsibility to pay for the cost of bringing them up. Jack and Jill feel so aggrieved with the extra total tax impost of $30,000 per annum that they are now expected to now pay the cost of bringing up other people's children. They have decided to sell up and move to Australia.
Jack and Jill will be just two of tens of thousands if their wealth tax ever sees the light of day.
Māori assets not being liable is outright reverse racism.
A fairer more progressive tax system or a version of Communism? The voters will decide in October.
What does Australia do
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/australia/individual/other-taxes
Quote from: Shareguy on Jun 12, 2023, 09:37 PMWhat does Australia do
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/australia/individual/other-taxes
In Australia, you set up a self managed super fund and you use that vehicle to hold company shares and investment properties. Rental/Dividend income is taxed at 15% and capital gains are taxed at 10%. I have a wealthy friend in Australia with over a million a year in income, on which he paid $11,000 in tax due to distributing the income via his family super fund. He was bummed out that he couldnt get rid of that last $11k ;D
He should try the UK tax system... and its probably what Lab/Greens want here and it will require thousands of accountants to add to GDP....
This articles describes its best for how the parties see it.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132308266/why-christopher-luxon-may-ride-the-whinging-wave-all-the-way-to-the-beehive
Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 14, 2023, 08:15 AMHe should try the UK tax system... and its probably what Lab/Greens want here and it will require thousands of accountants to add to GDP....
His worst nightmare was Labor abolishing the cash refund of franking credits on dividends :o . This is where dividends are received by people on a lower tax rate than the company one, so they get an IRD refund cheque. Fortunately the Labor Govt saw the loss of baby boomer votes on that one, so they scrapped it. ;D
Yes we have a special class of software that records dividends and the components in our Journal entity modelling system.
What lay people might call an accounting system... but wait its not really...smoke and mirrors.
"cash refund of franking credits on dividends"
nightmare ...... Financial Accounting is just beyond the average elected MP who has never balanced a cashbook with pencil and paper...
Whoops the IMF has something to say to NZ Inc.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/imf-calls-for-tax-reform-and-more-disciplined-govt-spending/ML77EJYGIZDN7L4XB4AOHQDQCA/
Chris Papageorgiou a guy who does theory balance sheets for countries where who cares if a land tax is impractical and causes a whole lot of mis valuations taxes that are less than accurate.
Its like taxing a river where the flow changes due to global warming.
It looks like it a static assets but you can never value it accurately cause actually its a moving target and accounting ledgers for it dont exist.
Taxs add regulation and increase engine friction. Less friction is a smoother economy running faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP0v4lL_rZw
Scrap the AML laws and add transaction identification certificates at the base banking transaction HUBS ... DA!!!!
Ian Taylor's open letter to Chloe....
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/openl-letter-chl%2525C3%2525B6e-swarbrick-ian-taylor-%3FtrackingId=2h4N8IXRRlyeMlcSmeAwvw%253D%253D/?trackingId=2h4N8IXRRlyeMlcSmeAwvw%3D%3D
Dame Jacinda's legacy:
The number of people on JobSeeker Work Ready has increased by 54% under Labour (from 63,048 in March 2018 to 96,885 in March 2023). A 25% increase in the number of people on the single parents benefit, and a 29% increase in the number on the "Disability" benefit. The percentage of the working age population on a benefit has gone from 9.2% in March 2018 to 11% - the only growth Labour has overseen in 5 years is in welfare dependence and tax collection.
We are rapidly becoming a nation of "leaners" not "lifters". And once the rot sets in, it will be very difficult to remove.
"leaners" not "lifters".
CLASSIC!!!
Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 16, 2023, 09:01 PM"leaners" not "lifters".
CLASSIC!!!
"Two Kinds of People
There are two kinds of people on earth today,
Two kinds of people no more I say.
Not the good or the bad, for it's well understood,
The good are half bad, the bad are half good.
Not the happy or sad, for in the swift-flying years,
Bring each man his laughter, each man his tears.
Not the rich or the poor, for to count a man's wealth,
You must know the state of his conscience and health.
Not the humble and proud, for in life's busy span,
Who puts on vain airs is not counted a man.
No! the two kinds of people on earth I mean,
Are the people who lift, the people who lean.
Wherever you go you'll find the world's masses
Are ever divided into these two classes.
And, strangely enough, you will find, too, I mean,
There is only one lifter to twenty who lean.
In which class are you? Are you easing the load
Of the overtaxed lifters who toiled down the road?
Or are you a leaner who lets others bear,
Your portion of worry and labor and care?"― Ella Wheeler Wilcox
Wow. Another judgmental, self-righteous attack. Not your own words of course, but clearly reflects your personal sentiment. No surprises there though.
Quote from: KW on Jun 17, 2023, 12:19 PM"Two Kinds of People
There are two kinds of people on earth today,
Two kinds of people no more I say.
Not the good or the bad, for it's well understood,
The good are half bad, the bad are half good.
Not the happy or sad, for in the swift-flying years,
Bring each man his laughter, each man his tears.
Not the rich or the poor, for to count a man's wealth,
You must know the state of his conscience and health.
Not the humble and proud, for in life's busy span,
Who puts on vain airs is not counted a man.
No! the two kinds of people on earth I mean,
Are the people who lift, the people who lean.
Wherever you go you'll find the world's masses
Are ever divided into these two classes.
And, strangely enough, you will find, too, I mean,
There is only one lifter to twenty who lean.
In which class are you? Are you easing the load
Of the overtaxed lifters who toiled down the road?
Or are you a leaner who lets others bear,
Your portion of worry and labor and care?"
― Ella Wheeler Wilcox
Its just a little verse... The human right commission could do a study to see if the 1:20 ratio true. Thats a very high ration indeed.
However since the human rights commission has lost its captain who was running a scam on the side they really might have to shut it down and start again... or not start...
This from today STUFFED articles on NZ...
The political process has become dysfunctional
Oliver Hartwich wrote in The Australian recently about how New Zealand has descended over recent decades into "mediocrity", pointing to declines in healthcare, education, housing, investment, etc. He blames poor political leadership and slothful policy-making processes: "Regardless of how pressing the challenges are, the immediate response is always to do nothing. Grudgingly followed by a working group. Then garnished with small armies of consultants. Eventually culminating in planning delays and finished with a grand centralisation plan – and even then, rounded off with a botched implementation, a few decades later."
Same thing for TAX consulting Groups led by a socialist englishman (Cullen) .
Lots of family homes will suddenly get a huge bill if they are in Trusts. Saves a lot mucking about with Wills and Applications for determining inheritance lines... Trusts are simply brilliant forms of companies and hopefully certain assets will be excluded from CGT in any entities.
Its all going to allow accountants and lawyers to make a fortune and they will need to IMPORT THEM!!! Farther driving up HOUSE PRICES!!!
ha ha ha
Your all STUFFED!!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-its-true-that-new-zealand-has-lost-its-mojo/MLJT2FUATNCQVDCZQ4QRLRLKDM/
Quote from: KW on Jun 17, 2023, 12:19 PM"Two Kinds of People
There are two kinds of people on earth today,
Two kinds of people no more I say.
Not the good or the bad, for it's well understood,
The good are half bad, the bad are half good.
Not the happy or sad, for in the swift-flying years,
Bring each man his laughter, each man his tears.
Not the rich or the poor, for to count a man's wealth,
You must know the state of his conscience and health.
Not the humble and proud, for in life's busy span,
Who puts on vain airs is not counted a man.
No! the two kinds of people on earth I mean,
Are the people who lift, the people who lean.
Wherever you go you'll find the world's masses
Are ever divided into these two classes.
And, strangely enough, you will find, too, I mean,
There is only one lifter to twenty who lean.
In which class are you? Are you easing the load
Of the overtaxed lifters who toiled down the road?
Or are you a leaner who lets others bear,
Your portion of worry and labor and care?"
― Ella Wheeler Wilcox
I thought the 2 kinds of people were the know-it-alls and those that don't know it all.
Quote from: Untamed on Jun 17, 2023, 01:17 PMWow. Another judgmental, self-righteous attack. Not your own words of course, but clearly reflects your personal sentiment. No surprises there though.
I'm simply pointing out where the famous phrase "be a lifter not a leaner" came from. I suggest if you view that as a judgemental, self righteous attack on yourself then you probably should get some therapy. A poem is but a poem. And it is nothing to do with you at all.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox (November 5, 1850 – October 30, 1919) was an American author and poet. Her works include the collection Poems of Passion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poems_of_Passion) and the poem "Solitude", which contains the lines "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; weep, and you weep alone." Her autobiography, The Worlds and I, was published in 1918, a year before her death.
Quote from: Untamed on Jun 17, 2023, 01:17 PMWow. Another judgmental, self-righteous attack. Not your own words of course, but clearly reflects your personal sentiment. No surprises there though.
Is this why you didnt like Australia?
screenshot-www.afr.com-2023.06.17-19_21_27.png
Quote from: KW on Jun 17, 2023, 07:18 PMAnd it is nothing to do with you at all.
I heard someone give someone else a tip the other day: QTIP. Kinda fits with what you are saying.
Nice poem by the way and its age shows the more we change, the more things stay the same. 1:20 is probably about right for lifters and leaners. I call them makers and breakers. Very few can "make" or create things but plenty can break them.
Cicero also has some great quotes.
So Chippie rules out wealth and capital gains taxes, but not before admitting that they were planning on implementing them. You really can't trust this Govt as far as you can kick them.
Quote from: KW on Jul 12, 2023, 10:19 PMSo Chippie rules out wealth and capital gains taxes, but not before admitting that they were planning on implementing them. You really can't trust this Govt as far as you can kick them.
You are right - the National led government broke so many promises in the past, we clearly can't trust them: https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1111/S00331/nationals-growing-list-of-broken-promises.htm
Better trust the anonymous posters on the internet, they all say the truth - all of them and all of the time. Ooops ..., do they?
I just hope that one day we will have an election where people compete with better ideas how to improve the country instead of trying to excel in undermining the other side. Where the better arguments and ideas win instead the most nasty undermining and character assassination of the opposing actors - because this nonsense of not trusting each other will lead us full speed into a real crisis.
The world is full of conservative, progressive and liberal people, and the ratios are pretty much invariable. We can either try to work together and shape a better future (but this involves respecting each other), or we can keep undermining each other, throw dirt against anybody who is still moving and bring the country down to the lowest level possible.
The choice is ours - do we want a flourishing country build by all of us, or do we want to end up in a deserted battle field?
Build together a better society or destroy everything by consistently undermining the other side and throwing grenades?
Where do we want to go?
"On the table was a package that would have introduced .... a 1.5% tax on the value of individuals' assets above a $5 million threshold."
That would make the NZ wealth tax the most punitive in the world. It would be a $75,000 payment on $5M. Even in Christchurch a nice house (not a mansion) would cost $2M nowadays, let alone Auckland and Wellington. So if you had a small business worth $2-3M and some savings, you'd be caught in the net.
And that $75,000 would have to be paid for by selling something. So if you only own a house, commercial property, or business, where would you get the cash?
Quote from: KW on Jul 13, 2023, 11:45 AM"On the table was a package that would have introduced .... a 1.5% tax on the value of individuals' assets above a $5 million threshold."
That would make the NZ wealth tax the most punitive in the world. It would be a $75,000 payment on $5M. Even in Christchurch a nice house (not a mansion) would cost $2M nowadays, let alone Auckland and Wellington. So if you had a small business worth $2-3M and some savings, you'd be caught in the net.
And that $75,000 would have to be paid for by selling something. So if you only own a house, commercial property, or business, where would you get the cash?
Not true. I assume you realize that the family home was excluded from the wealth tax proposal anyway?
It might have caught some of the people banking empty houses and waiting for further price hikes, though. I know about some. My heart is bleeding for them ...
Still - while I am personally not a fan of such a blunt wealth tax (which I am sure, is easily avoidable anyway) - if you complain about the proposal Labour dumped, then at least you should present all the facts.
But given that we are now discussing past and already dumped drafts - I assume there are not many good and recent reasons against some sort of wealth tax, are they?
Quote from: BlackPeter on Jul 13, 2023, 12:24 PMBut given that we are now discussing past and already dumped drafts - I assume there are not many good and recent reasons against some sort of wealth tax, are they?
Its only "past" until like every other broken promise, Labour resurrects it later. I also remember the promise "no new taxes" but that clearly meant nothing.
Just means that people should be making backup plans, like keeping a lot of assets offshore so you can get out when you need to.
Tax it like its ... ok lets not ...
Cathy wood says a new roaring 20's is coming. That should give you a few year to move out to where ever the party is getting started....
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132547885/damien-grant-what-labours-wealth-tax-plan-tells-us-about-our-leaders
A new roaring 20s? Maybe, but the WSJ reckons that. . .
"Cathie Wood's flagship exchange-traded fund has rallied more than 50% this year. Investors are using that as an opportunity to get out.
They have pulled a net $717 million from the ARK Innovation ETF over the past 12 months, according to FactSet. That exodus marks a notable shift for a fund that had consistently drawn investor cash since its 2014 inception. Once the largest actively managed ETF with nearly $30 billion in assets under management, the fund has shrunk to roughly $9 billion, mostly due to investment losses.
Known by its ticker symbol ARKK, Wood's fund became an investor darling shortly after the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic with hugely successful bets on unprofitable and "disruptive" technology companies. It took in huge amounts of investor money, culminating with a $6.5 billion inflow in the first quarter of 2021, when its share price peaked.01"
Paywalled at https://www.wsj.com/articles/investors-are-bailing-on-cathie-woods-popular-ark-fund-dbf5d8
Those taxes are criminal enterprises under state sanction stealing operations....
Here we go again... food shortages ... Tax the wealthy its the best solution yet...
just roll out the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine
then confiscate their estates ...
Then when you run out of wealthy dead people what then ...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stuff-to-watch/300960845/the-food-crisis-the-urgent-timely-documentary-every-kiwi-voter-should-watch
The article started out promising and the author / doco maker went 'off piste' so to speak. To claim taxes solve food shortage shows he has not yet clearly defined the problem. More propaganda posing as news?
Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 03, 2023, 10:02 AMHere we go again... food shortages ... Tax the wealthy its the best solution yet...
...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stuff-to-watch/300960845/the-food-crisis-the-urgent-timely-documentary-every-kiwi-voter-should-watch
'off piste'
classic..
Let them Eat Cake ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake
Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 03, 2023, 10:02 AMHere we go again... food shortages ... Tax the wealthy its the best solution yet...
just roll out the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine
then confiscate their estates ...
Then when you run out of wealthy dead people what then ...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stuff-to-watch/300960845/the-food-crisis-the-urgent-timely-documentary-every-kiwi-voter-should-watch
Why am I not surprised to read this on stuff.
Shareguy, it's the way the world is moving. You get taxed when you make money, you get taxed on the money you have , then taxed on the money you spend.
Think of it as winning at a bonus trifecta!
Which party is proposing to close down 20-25% of New Zealand's farms? Labour. If you don't want to starve in the future, don't vote Left.
Quote from: KW on Sep 07, 2023, 12:45 PMWhich party is proposing to close down 20-25% of New Zealand's farms? Labour. If you don't want to starve in the future, don't vote Left.
I guess there are lots of real reasons not to vote for Labour, but your statement is clearly incorrect and nonsensical.
I assume you realise that the 20% (not 25%) was referring only to beef farming? Might be hard to believe, but there are other things our farms produce which are edible: fruit, veggies, potatoes, grain, corn, milk.
As well ... NZ agriculture is currently feeding some 40 million people. Even if you statement would be true (which it is not), there still would be more than enough food for the 5.something million people living in NZ.
Actually - not sure whether you consider yourself hard-right (some of your arguments and misinformation clearly come from that conrner ...) - but I think the hard right is shooting itself in the feet by spreading such nonsense.
The only way for National to win is to embrace the political centre instead of putting them off.
Quote from: KW on Sep 07, 2023, 12:45 PMWhich party is proposing to close down 20-25% of New Zealand's farms? Labour. If you don't want to starve in the future, don't vote Left.
How they think they can do that without stuffing export earnings and the consequent downstream impacts shows they are delusional ideologues. There are many reasons to not vote left...closing down 20% of farms is one of many.
"The scariest impact from the government's rehash of the He Waka Eke Noa proposal was that it's own modelling showed the impact on sheep and beef farming would be as high as 20%."
My bird bath has more depth than the Labour front bench.
So Washington state announces they will be implementing a 1% wealth tax, and Jeff Bezos decides to move to Florida. It would cost him $1.6B a year to continue to live there (more actually as he would have to sell shares to fund it, so also pay capital gains taxes).
How much annual income tax will Washington lose by driving the richest man in the state out of it?
There's a lesson there, if the Greens/Maori care to learn it.
QuoteMy bird bath has more depth than the Labour front bench.
LOL, I missed that post until just now. Funniest sentence I have read all week.
Very well said. I better clean mine out so the birds can enjoy it this summer, it's full of rotten old weeds and dead wood twigs...perhaps not unlike the Labour party lol
From the Tax payer union... Merry Xmas...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISsBurABj_c
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/sir-john-key-talks-to-paula-bennett-about-politics-ambition-and-raising-kids-ask-me-anything/OY4J5KLGLJFYRLOKRVY7WDZZEQ/
To complicated to explain ... right and they are usually a nightmare to implement and dont involve proper ledgers and currency smoothing calculations...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labours-worst-week-highlights-its-existential-crisis-political-round-up/X5ZFOQ53UJAZXPWZVKJ4ETBTVY/