StockTalk

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-date-or-reshuffle-pm-jacinda-ardern-to-make-first-announcement-of-election-year/K5N4VW477RF2JB3CGAZBXSNBBU/

Pleased to see the back of her. She'd completely run out of idea's...repeating the "be kind mantra" while leading the most divisive government in N.Z's history had become nauseating a very long time ago.  I think its clear to many she was completly out of her depth.  Of course she and her colleagues will try and "spin" her legacy in a much more favorable light just like they try and put a spin on all their other bad news and failures.

Great news...now which puppet will replace her?

Lets hope its Nanaia Mahuta and she continues to try and ram three waters down our throats, so we have a crystal clear distinction between Labour and National.

predicted this in my  2023 predictions below  :-\

Just waiting to hear if Neve will be going to school in Tairua or Geneva to get 100% correct.

Wish I could predict share price movements as accurately

quote author=Perky link=msg=5025 date=1671410804]
I Predict
1. the beagle continues to talk his book...until he's moved on to something else
2. Labour lose, jacinda doesn't stand for pm and relocates to Europe
3. Shares very volatile but very little overall growth
4. Fixed interest and corporate bonds perform
5. Oil and gas surge on cold weather and limited supply in Europe and people realise you can't turn them off and renewables on that quickly
6.oca stage recovery..the beagle announces he took an oversized position a few months back

Happy fishing Beagle and thanks for all your time and effort posting your musings on the forum.

Hope your got some good divies stashed..filling up the boat on diesel can't be  much fun ::)
[/quote]

Christopher Luxon or Nanaia Mahuta...gosh, decisions, decisons, that's a tough choice lol

Actually now you mention it Beagle I would say I can tick off no 1 off my list with your U turn sale of ARV after talking it up for the past few months

I think the next Labour leader will be Chippy Chris Hipkins
Wild card Kiri Allen

I am disappointed that like a filthy rat, she is leaving the sinking ship before she can be held to account for all the damage and disease she inflicted.  I was looking forward to seeing her held accountable for the economic destruction she has wrought on this country, but now she just gets to retire gracefully while everyone blows smoke up her arse.  I too knew she wouldn't stand for the next election, thats why she has been shopping her resume all over the world since the borders opened late last year. 

Aside from who the new Labour leader will be, and whether or not they can rebuild a "New Labour" by the time of the election, is what Winston Peters is going to do.  If anyone noticed, he had very carefully worded his "I will not work with that lot" statement to refer to Jacinda specifically, and not Labour in general.  He's a wily old fox that one, now he's back in Kingmaker position again with the ability to work with both parties.  A clean sweep by National & Act is no longer so assured. 

Quote from: Perky on Jan 19, 2023, 02:30 PMActually now you mention it Beagle I would say I can tick off no 1 off my list with your U turn sale of ARV after talking it up for the past few months

Give it a rest dude, you already made your dig yesterday.  In case it's not already perfectly obvious from this thread, big decisions are made over the holidays when there's more time to reflect.

"The Fox, when he cannot reach the grapes, says they are not ripe." - George Herbert

I reckon the wily ole fox Winston has cooked his goose this time. He's shown nz his tricks and now the voters have learnt with foxes, we must play the fox

After all he put Labour in charge in the first place.
I think National & Act will control with no deals required.

"A fox is a wolf who sends flowers." - Ruth Brown

Agree with that.  I think a lot of people now see him as more of a weasel than a wily old fox.

That said it's good to see two politicians calling it as it really is today, extract from press article

QuoteAct leader David Seymour was less charitable than Luxon.

"Jacinda Ardern is a well-meaning person, but her idealism collided hard with reality," he said.

"We wish her and her family well for their future.

"Ardern's collision with reality has left this country with big problems: the economy, the lawlessness, the Treaty.

"New Zealand needs a new government of real change and Act will be providing the ideas and the backbone to make the change real," he said.

NZ First leader Winston Peters who served as Ardern's deputy prime minister in her first term said he was not surprised by her resignation, which he put down to failures this term.

"The Labour Government post-2020 has been in serious trouble and so has the Prime Minister. Having set such huge targets on which they haven't delivered, this was not unforseeable," Peters said.

Peters had earlier ruled out working with Labour in comments to the Herald, citing the He Puapua report which Labour kept secret from NZ First when they were in Government.

Peters said this position had not changed, despite Ardern's resignation. He would not work with Labour, no matter who led it.

"I'm saying they lied to me and they don't get to lie to me twice. They is a plural," he said.

Without Jacinda, maybe all the Labour voters will flock to Winston Peters and NZ First, and Labour will become the minority party. :o That would be a bit of a laugh.  The polls over the next few month will be very interesting.

Quote from: Perky on Jan 19, 2023, 02:14 PMI Predict
1. the beagle continues to talk his book...until he's moved on to something else
2. Labour lose,

I thought the whole point of this forum was to talk our books?

Then I can learn from you old fellas

Quote from: arekaywhy on Jan 20, 2023, 07:39 AMI thought the whole point of this forum was to talk our books?

Then I can learn from you old fellas

You are in the "politics" part of this forum. Some of us have been around politics for a very long time. Today (well actually yesterday) was a great day and I am still smiling today.

But to try and put a bit of a share market spin into this thread, look out for the next 6 months.

There are basically three parts to labour at the moment. The Maori part, The union part and the "social justice" part.

Who ever wins the poisoned chalice on Sunday is going to have to manage those three parts.

And the first thing that is likely to effect the markets is a declaration on what this years new Minimum Wage is going to be. And this is where the Union part will be advocating for a very high increase - Maybe $1.50 an hour. They will see this as their last chance to artificially increase wages for those at the bottom.

And once that new minimum wage is announced look for the effect of its ripples throughout the rest of the economy and markets.

(Don't forget the quasi minimum wage goes to $29.66 with effect from 20 Feb. This is the minimum wage employers have to pay to bring migrants (a few jobs aside) into the country - which has relativity impacts for all other wages.

Quote from: Basil on Jan 19, 2023, 01:53 PMhttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-date-or-reshuffle-pm-jacinda-ardern-to-make-first-announcement-of-election-year/K5N4VW477RF2JB3CGAZBXSNBBU/

Pleased to see the back of her. She'd completely run out of idea's...repeating the "be kind mantra" while leading the most divisive government in N.Z's history had become nauseating a very long time ago.  I think its clear to many she was completly out of her depth.  Of course she and her colleagues will try and "spin" her legacy in a much more favorable light just like they try and put a spin on all their other bad news and failures.

Yes, she started with good intentions but managed to basically screw up anything she said she wanted to fix and starting instead to implement a lot of stuff she nobody told about beforehand and which the majority didn't wanted.

Not sure, though, whether this is related to political colors ... if we look at the tories in the UK - they said they want to return Britain to previous imperial glory and look how spectacular they failed! They diminished any global impact Britain still might have had and managed to run the British economy into the ground.

So - the question is - do we prefer as a leader somebody with a secret agenda but otherwise good intentions though unable to implement them or somebody with bad intentions and able to implement them?

And lets face it - spin has nothing to do with political colors either. Nobody lied more than e.g. the Republicans under Trump or e.g. the Brazilian Right Wing under Bolsonaro.

Maybe its just the time of corrupted, selfish and inept politicians (no matter whether left or right) ... and using this gauge, actually - I think Jacinda Adern ranks still pretty well in comparison to many other recent world leaders.

And I think its as well the time of a tsunami of hate and vitriol against democratic politicians. The vitriol dished out might well further reduce our chances to get a good and decent future leader - I am sure there are many good leaders who just don't want to be exposed to all the cr*p Jacinda Adern was exposed to on a daily basis. Good for her to enduring that for more than 5 years!

Lets as well remember that there have been moments where we could all be proud of her. I think she did well e.g. after the terrorist attacks as well as in the first Covid phase, and I think this is much more than what one can say about many of the right wing populist politicians around the globe.

Probably a good time to just say thank you instead of still kicking her on her way out. She did lead us during very difficult times, she had to take an incredible level of hate and vitriol (ways more than many other politicians), and while she clearly failed with achieving many of her aspirational goals - I think she was well meaning and she brought the ship she commanded in a better condition through the recent storms than many other captains / country leaders did.

Looking forward ... I am sure we all could think about better leaders (less secret agenda and more implementation skills), however - whether this is what we will get next is still something nobody can know ... and it has nothing to do with the political colors.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jan 20, 2023, 09:54 AMProbably a good time to just say thank you instead of still kicking her on her way out. She did lead us during very difficult times, she had to take an incredible level of hate and vitriol (ways more than many other politicians), and while she clearly failed with achieving many of her aspirational goals - I think she was well meaning and she brought the ship she commanded in a better condition through the recent storms than many other captains / country leaders did.

I think we should all put the boot in on her way out the door.  The reason being is that a strong message needs to be sent to the next person doing the job - never again do we want the Bill of Rights, the Nuremberg Code and basically every other protection that we used to have from Govt tyranny, be so glibly overridden.  And the glee that she expressed while she did it, well that just makes it personal for a lot of people.  And if you want to divide us based on identity politics, create an Us vs Them set up nationwide and incite people to turn on each other, then you need to know this is the outcome. She needs to be made an example of, so it never happens again.

Sadly, she will go on to make millions of dollars on the speaking tour, get a multi million dollar book deal, and probably a Netflix series.  She will be okay.  The New Zealanders who lost their lives, livelihoods, health, homes, businesses ... not so much. 

Quote from: KW on Jan 20, 2023, 10:56 AMI think we should all put the boot in on her way out the door.  The reason being is that a strong message needs to be sent to the next person doing the job - never again do we want the Bill of Rights, the Nuremberg Code and basically every other protection that we used to have from Govt tyranny, be so glibly overridden.  And the glee that she expressed while she did it, well that just makes it personal for a lot of people.  And if you want to divide us based on identity politics, create an Us vs Them set up nationwide and incite people to turn on each other, then you need to know this is the outcome. She needs to be made an example of, so it never happens again.

Sadly, she will go on to make millions of dollars on the speaking tour, get a multi million dollar book deal, and probably a Netflix series.  She will be okay.  The New Zealanders who lost their lives, livelihoods, health, homes, businesses ... not so much.

Does "I think she is the worst PM in our history" count?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-ardern-steps-down-as-prime-minister-kiwis-react-to-pms-shock-resignation/WP4JKFQEAJE5FNDH7LQZ2IVFVM/

Someone in Parliament early on called her a "silly little girl"

Quote from: KW on Jan 20, 2023, 10:56 AMI think we should all put the boot in on her way out the door.  The reason being is that a strong message needs to be sent to the next person doing the job - never again do we want the Bill of Rights, the Nuremberg Code and basically every other protection that we used to have from Govt tyranny, be so glibly overridden.  And the glee that she expressed while she did it, well that just makes it personal for a lot of people.  And if you want to divide us based on identity politics, create an Us vs Them set up nationwide and incite people to turn on each other, then you need to know this is the outcome. She needs to be made an example of, so it never happens again.

...

Well, I don't know ...

Lets put it that way - I guess it is clear that you do not agree with her political agenda, and actually - I might be closer to your political views than to hers.

Political disagreements and a good political discussion about which way to go is important in any democracy, so - nothing wrong with a robust debate about issues.

However - neither the vitriol and the hate poured out against her during the last 5 years or so nor the kicks she currently gets from the eternal hater club have anything to do with a helpful political debate.

To be honest - I don't remember any example in history where kicking of the political opponent resulted in a better government and society. Do you? It just leads to less and less good people being interested in the job, it leads to further moves to the extremes (on both sides of the political spectrum), it often leads to physical violence (the hate in the social media is just the beginning) and the result is always lots of tears and pain (if we are lucky) and lots of spilled blood (if we are less lucky) for everybody.

Have a look at history - e.g. the first half of the last century in Europe. Many great examples ...

Problem is - the really bad people don't mind the vitriol and the kicking - they thrive on it. It is just the decent people who turn their back in disgust.

I think we better should have a constructive dialogue where this country should go ... instead of throwing mud at past democratic leaders.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jan 20, 2023, 11:52 AMTo be honest - I don't remember any example in history where kicking of the political opponent resulted in a better government and society. Do you? 

I grudgingly agree with you BP.  But the kicking is making me feel a lot better  ;D  And I wasnt even badly affected by her, I am more angry on behalf of the people I know who lost their jobs and professional careers, their homes, their businesses, their health (I know several people who either ended up in hospital post vaccination, forced into taking the non-effective vaccine because of mandates or who now have permanent heart damage, so much for side effects being "rare"!), for the people who fell out with friends and family over the lies told about the vaccine (the whole "take the vaccine to save others" bulldust), and for the people who are still too afraid to leave their homes and resume normal life because of the fear porn that was promulgated by "the single source of truth".  I blame her for the endless stream of lies - about covid, about covid modelling, about the vaccines, the vaccine side effects, all of it.  And people can say "oh we didnt know stuff back then" but if you don't know something, you admit you don't know it, you don't make stuff up and present it as the truth or "The Science" and then shut down anyone who dares question you.  

And then she divided the country by race.  A whole other topic in itself.  Covid drugs were only available to Maori/Pacific people in the beginning, anyone else had to be practically dying to get them.  While the average age of people dying with/from covid was 64 during the first Omicron wave, a non Maori-Pacific person couldnt get the drug unless they were aged over 75.  Even today access to the drugs is determined by race.  The entire health system policy seems to now work on the basis that equality of racial health outcomes will be improved by making sure more white people die.  How about making sure that less people in general die rather than focusing on race?

Spencer Park Caravans. We should know how vulnerable people who live in caravan parks are. Not vaccinated - you were kicked out. Your fellow park resident dies. You get to see the the commemoration from the other side of the fence. Christchurch City Council did this - with no risk assessment. Just following Aderns orders. I don't know how some people sleep at night.

Pfizer CEO at Davos being hustled.

https://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1616819081604378625

Quote from: mcdongle on Jan 22, 2023, 09:31 AMPfizer CEO at Davos being hustled.

https://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1616819081604378625

This is Rebel News standard tactic - ambush, shout loaded questions and then deem a non reply as evidence of complicit guilt.

For context, Rebel News is a neo-fascist media website. It was primarily an anti-Muslim and antisemitic platform that now climbs on every conspiracy theory going.

Actually I lie.  I was badly affected, I've just blocked it from my memory.  During lockdown she denied medical diagnostics and treatment to anyone who didnt have covid - I developed a shoulder problem that due to lack of treatment became frozen shoulder, which then became two frozen shoulders.  I spent the two months of lockdown living on my own, unable to use either of my arms, and in debilitating pain, followed by over a year of intense physical therapy to get the use of my arms back.  I was on painkillers for 7 months.  Something that should never have happened.  So I'm angry about that, and for everyone else who had to suffer in agony during that period, and who have ended up with serious health problems that cant be treated now because it wasnt dealt to earlier.  I'm just lucky I didn't have cancer.

Quote from: KW on Jan 22, 2023, 10:28 AMActually I lie.  I was badly affected, I've just blocked it from my memory.  During lockdown she denied medical diagnostics and treatment to anyone who didnt have covid - I developed a shoulder problem that due to lack of treatment became frozen shoulder, which then became two frozen shoulders.  I spent the two months of lockdown living on my own, unable to use either of my arms, and in debilitating pain, followed by over a year of intense physical therapy to get the use of my arms back.  I was on painkillers for 7 months.  Something that should never have happened.  So I'm angry about that, and for everyone else who had to suffer in agony during that period, and who have ended up with serious health problems that cant be treated now because it wasnt dealt to earlier.  I'm just lucky I didn't have cancer.

Wine thru a straw eh KW

Quote from: Minimoke on Jan 21, 2023, 10:48 PMSpencer Park Caravans. We should know how vulnerable people who live in caravan parks are. Not vaccinated - you were kicked out. Your fellow park resident dies. You get to see the the commemoration from the other side of the fence. Christchurch City Council did this - with no risk assessment. Just following Aderns orders. I don't know how some people sleep at night.

The biggest tragedy was all the people who had to die alone, because none of their family were allowed to visit and sit with them.  Absolutely heartbreaking.  I am thankful that my mother died in Oct 2019 because I cant imagine the horror of her spending her last 12 hours in hospital on her own without us being able to say goodbye.  We would have had to have made the life support decision without even seeing her.  Or being able to travel to get to see her.  Or being able to comfort my father during and after her death.  And none of us bar my father would have been able to attend her funeral.  I'm angry for all those people who had family and friends die too, I could never have imagined that a Govt could be so cruel.

"She'd completely run out of idea's."

what ideas.. it was what ever was trending on Witter and Face It that was Wokie Donkie..

went she lost control of the IWI branch of the labour party or rather realised they though they could do whatever they liked she realised the game was up and her brand needed protecting so she could eject out to the UN.. Evryone thought she would eject by march even in wellington consultants were talking about not IF but when.
 
The GOVT did not make the decison to close the border. A doctor told me they had all be warning the health ministry in early JAN that borders could have to be closed.

It was the Doctors and medical professional that made the decision and the GOVT was dragged kicking and screaming behind the border controls...

CINDY did not make the decision it was made for her...

The stats form...

Dont fill in the form.... reject the form... spray it with anything you can find...

revolt!!!! revolt!!! Revolt!!!

object on the grounds the  election was rigged!!!

reject its sovereignty on the grounds of fraudulent policies...

 election bets for 10 dollars!!!
 
i will have to ask if i can use the credit card.... 

summer is out and RIP curl is getting a hammering and there is talk of New Surf boards if we are staying another year...

i mean you cant say no to the Troops...

 The Government is now stuck between a Rock and the East Coast flood plain!!!

Dont imagine they thought this would happen.  I had forgotten Cylone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Bola

 but lots of people have not...

Maybe they throw a Hail Marry pass put up a big tax rate hike and go to the election in late MAY!!!

Dont wait for the Tax hike to take effect!!!

ACT wants the GOVT to ACT on the East Cost receovery plan by creating a Economic Crisis ZONE.

The GOVT wants to Tax everyone some more instead of taking a Knife to itself first ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131397343/act-wants-special-economic-zone-for-hawkes-bay-tairwhiti-cyclone-recovery
 

Quote from: Waltzing on Mar 03, 2023, 03:48 PMMaybe they throw a Hail Marry pass put up a big tax rate hike and go to the election in late MAY!!!

Dont wait for the Tax hike to take effect!!!

Hey Waltz, had another mate today who thinks snap election in May....  Hhmmm...

Imagine the sheer numbers of views hidden in labour minds... Doubt they can even think of the equations...

Chirpe Chippee might be saying to them all "Hold your Nerves"...

But honestly a Tax Rate hike to who? How are you going to sell that to anyone...

After all GOVT created the inflation surge anyway with labour shortages and a government who maybe has certain demographics not wanting anymore educated or skilled people coming into the country before they get CO GOV into place...

Well that failed and now the country needs skilled people and is short of them including compliants from tourism ect.

How many sectors are short who knows.

I dont know anyone who really wants to pay any more taxes right?

Take a Poll out there Whome and become a social media celeb!!!

Go you!!!

Let us know what the people want!!

Red .. its everywhere these days... from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing to

Moscow...  RED , RED, RED.... Simple RED..

Why would you VOTE for RED!!!!

Why would you in this day and age use the Color RED as your political party color...

Why would call yourself Labour?

Its been 100 years of  RED and what do we know about this color...

Its the color of DEATH!!!

You would have though by now you would not want to share your parties COLORS on your flag with the CCP and Russia and the CCCP...


https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/video/dancing-cossacks

I guess we better lobby The Crusaders to change their colours quickly then, lest they be considered supporters of Putin, and purveyors of death.

Quote from: Waltzing on Mar 03, 2023, 10:32 PMRed .. its everywhere these days... from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing to

Moscow...  RED , RED, RED.... Simple RED..

Why would you VOTE for RED!!!!

Why would you in this day and age use the Color RED as your political party color...

Why would call yourself Labour?

Its been 100 years of  RED and what do we know about this color...

Its the color of DEATH!!!

You would have though by now you would not want to share your parties COLORS on your flag with the CCP and Russia and the CCCP...


https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/video/dancing-cossacks

Well in defence of NZ sport it doesnt like to involve itself in politics....

therefore the CRUSADERS can say they have no idea what the color RED means ....

They just SEE RED when they are being scrummed off the ball.......

share guy found this...https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131380164/josie-pagani-how-to-pay-to-fix-our-broken-infrastructure

and really what she is saying is that soemthing RADICAL is needed but being a girl she cant see how RADICAL it needs to be... or maybe how RUTH it needs to be...

A JSOC set of department teams that are out and about in their helicopters co ordinating the local and putting together the teams local councils need for a project by project basis.

Firstly, Josie is a woman not a girl.
Secondly, you're a braver man than me, making a comment like that, in a forum that includes women.

Quote from: Waltzing on Mar 04, 2023, 01:16 PMshare guy found this...https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131380164/josie-pagani-how-to-pay-to-fix-our-broken-infrastructure

and really what she is saying is that soemthing RADICAL is needed but being a girl she cant see how RADICAL it needs to be... or maybe how RUTH it needs to be...

A JSOC set of department teams that are out and about in their helicopters co ordinating the local and putting together the teams local councils need for a project by project basis.

Look women , girls they are just trouble... In ballroom the man is supposed to lead ... but really secretly some of them want to be men... cause they can do a better job...

I alway let the girls... women lead off since "she who knows everything" has better ears.... the only time i ever won an argument with "she who knows best" is when i created a Daigram of motion... and then she wanted to steal it and show everyone.. after all she taught me everything i know...

They just know everything and you cant win.. dont try..memory like elephants..

And as every girl/women on dancing with the stars will tell you its ACTUALLY about THEM!!

As for girls in economic there is 2 copies of "Accounting for nothing" in the library book shelf.

https://www.marilynwaring.com/publications/counting-for-nothing.asp

and for social science you cant beat that New York Glam Dr Helen Fench  "beyond power"

and if you really want to see guys getting bashed over the head try this ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/elon-musk-richard-dawkins-criticism-of-matauranga-maori-in-schools-faces-backlash-from-kiwi-researcher/QQWSKLTDF5DCTETX5F3P3RBC5Y/

whos to say 700 years of trial and error on what tastes best and deosnt kill you in the forest isnt a form of tribal statistical recording keeping of a sorts...

Now students to day have to pay big dollars to educated themselves  and really has anyone asked them what they want to learn or is it just blared into their ears cuase Doctor so and so knows best...

Girls know best what you need to learn... cant see the western scientists winning that one..

The Girls will just say ... sorry not reading that ...

Im constantly told im not allowed to say that anymore " You cant say that anymore".  Days later i get told whatever they feel like saying to me...

There is one rule for us boys (some of you might be called man folk), lucky you and another one for GIRLS....

Now did you notice that the most defensive recession stock was this week on CNBC?

your right its a listed stock market "Liptstick company"!!!

go on just call me a c c c  col coloononist!!!

Mr James...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R05moPYrgaY

OK, clearly your ambition in life is to  to be the Stocktalk clown, OR you're just nuts.

I suspect it's the latter.

Quote from: Waltzing on Mar 04, 2023, 08:02 PMLook women , girls they are just trouble... In ballroom the man is supposed to lead ... but really secretly some of them want to be men... cause they can do a better job...

I alway let the girls... women lead off since "she who knows everything" has better ears.... the only time i ever won an argument with "she who knows best" is when i created a Daigram of motion... and then she wanted to steal it and show everyone.. after all she taught me everything i know...

They just know everything and you cant win.. dont try..memory like elephants..

And as every girl/women on dancing with the stars will tell you its ACTUALL about THEM!!

As for girls in economic there is 2 copies of "Accounting for nothing" in the library book shelf.

https://www.marilynwaring.com/publications/counting-for-nothing.asp

and for social science you cant beat that New York Glam Dr Helen Fench  "beyond power"

and if you really want to see guys getting bashed over the head try this ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/elon-musk-richard-dawkins-criticism-of-matauranga-maori-in-schools-faces-backlash-from-kiwi-researcher/QQWSKLTDF5DCTETX5F3P3RBC5Y/

whos to say 700 years of trial and error on what tastes best and deosnt kill you in the forest isnt a form of tribal statistical recording keeping of a sorts...

Now students to day have to pay big dollars to educated themselves  and really has anyone asked them what they want to learn or is it just blared into their ears cuase Doctor so and so knows best...

Girls know best what you need to learn... cant see the western scientisrs winning that one..

The Girls will just say ... sorry not reading that ...

Im constantly told im not allowed to say that anymore " You cant say that anymore".  Days later i get told whatever they feel like saying to me...

There is one rule for us man and another one for GIRLS.... They dont even know they are doing it...

Now did you notice that the most defensive recession stock was tis week on CNBC?

your right its a listed stock market "Liptstick company"!!!

Quote from: Untamed on Mar 04, 2023, 08:18 PMOK, clearly your ambition in life is to  to be the Stocktalk clown, OR you're just nuts.

I suspect it's the latter.

https://youtu.be/cmbBM4gO4mE

Well Hello GIRLS and BOYS.... 

who hasnt read "Accounting for Nothing"

One of the most serious works on economics by a New Zealand Economist.

Dr Frenchs social science work was famous in the late 90 in New York.

Anyone who doesnt take Dr MW seriously needs to re read her work.
 
Last weeks pick on CNBC for a defensive stock wasnt defense... not it was RED Lipstick stock!

Its best to keep a light hearted approach to markets if you want to survive on market.

And dont forget to do your backoffice software work... 

Remember in "More  Money than God" the author pointing out the investors and investment houses that created good automated back office services are the ones that survive the market over the decades the best.

Since most back office services in NZ are negligent in there database management one would have to give them a grade D...

In fact the lack of standards on the New Zealand after market platforms which received there data from the NZX should be audited by the FMA...

We keep a model ready incase the FMA does an AUDIT...

Hows that  back office automation AUDITING and Accounting going.

No we dont count NUTS we use software automation to count. How balanced are your stock market ledgers.

By the way notice with OMC accounts you have do special arithmetic expressions to add back the brokerage to get a balance profit and loss ledger.



 


 

Now this absolutely takes the cake. The Prime Minister of NZ was asked what a woman was this arvo and was lost for words and showed himself to be a complete Numpty. My 6 yr old granddaughter can answer this without even thinking about it(In her own words) wokeism at its finest.

The politics of China ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhjJHtN8kas

DRIP DRIP DRIP...

or is it a case of  EX SPIRTS at work..

Drips under pressure...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132245011/michael-wood-the-shares-and-the-taint-of-incompetence

Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 07, 2023, 08:29 AMDRIP DRIP DRIP...

or is it a case of  EX SPIRTS at work..

Drips under pressure...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132245011/michael-wood-the-shares-and-the-taint-of-incompetence

Hmm - not a fan of Labour either - but turning an AIA holding of slightly above NZD 10,000 into a hanging offence for not managing the "conflict of interest" appears ridiculous.

Just wondering how many politicians would need to leave the beehive if we fire every MP landlord who voted in the tenancy law reform or changing the tax treatment of landlords? And for each of these landlords (on both side of the political spectrum) there would have been much more money at stake than for Woodhouse doing anything about AIA.

BTW - did he do anything which was beneficial to AIA? How many $100 did he make out of that (if at all)?

I really think National would be good advised to focus on the things Kiwis really care about. So easy for them to loose the next election if they continue this stupid "p*ss against every tree" strategy.

Yes BP but it reflects that general "eat cake" from all sides...

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 07, 2023, 09:31 AMHmm - not a fan of Labour either - but turning an AIA holding of slightly above NZD 10,000 into a hanging offence for not managing the "conflict of interest" appears ridiculous.

Just wondering how many politicians would need to leave the beehive if we fire every MP landlord who voted in the tenancy law reform or changing the tax treatment of landlords? And for each of these landlords (on both side of the political spectrum) there would have been much more money at stake than for Woodhouse doing anything about AIA.

BTW - did he do anything which was beneficial to AIA? How many $100 did he make out of that (if at all)?

I really think National would be good advised to focus on the things Kiwis really care about. So easy for them to loose the next election if they continue this stupid "p*ss against every tree" strategy.

The isse isn't that he holds a few AIA shares.

The issue is that he failed to declare that holding ever. Not once in all his time in parliament - which is a requirement of all MP's. And if MP's have a rental property they should declare that as well - and they do.

Then to compound his "crime" he failed to declare his shareholding when he became both Minister of Transport (affects airports) and Minister for Auckland (affects, obviously, Auckland)

And then to top it off he was told to dispose of those shares to avoid a conflict of interest situation, no less than 6 times.

And if anyone has the stomach for cream on top of that topping his wife who is an Auckland City Councilor also failed to declare her interests - which is a requirement of Councilors.

I've had the "pleasure" of meeting him a couple of times. He loved the adoration thrown at his feet by his sycophantic union rep adorees (and what a ghastly lot they were). And didnt take to kindly being told some home truths about what the real world actually looked like. Lets say I was far from impressed. But I left with a much better understanding of the Peter Principle.

Edit - we now learn that on 12 occasions he said he was going to sell his shares but never did. This is far from trivial.

Quote from: Minimoke on Jun 07, 2023, 01:18 PMEdit - we now learn that on 12 occasions he said he was going to sell his shares but never did. This is far from trivial.

Once is a mistake.  Twice is forgetful.  12 times and it becomes outright and deliberate deceit.  

Quote from: Minimoke on Jun 07, 2023, 01:18 PMThe isse isn't that he holds a few AIA shares.

The issue is that he failed to declare that holding ever. Not once in all his time in parliament - which is a requirement of all MP's. And if MP's have a rental property they should declare that as well - and they do.

Then to compound his "crime" he failed to declare his shareholding when he became both Minister of Transport (affects airports) and Minister for Auckland (affects, obviously, Auckland)

And then to top it off he was told to dispose of those shares to avoid a conflict of interest situation, no less than 6 times.

And if anyone has the stomach for cream on top of that topping his wife who is an Auckland City Councilor also failed to declare her interests - which is a requirement of Councilors.

I've had the "pleasure" of meeting him a couple of times. He loved the adoration thrown at his feet by his sycophantic union rep adorees (and what a ghastly lot they were). And didnt take to kindly being told some home truths about what the real world actually looked like. Lets say I was far from impressed. But I left with a much better understanding of the Peter Principle.

Edit - we now learn that on 12 occasions he said he was going to sell his shares but never did. This is far from trivial.

Good points, as well as Blackpeter's post.

Given that it is such a relatively small value, why on earth (in other words: what was he thinking) would he not comply. He seemingly had so little to lose/ or gain with those shares, but so much to lose by hanging on to them.

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Jun 07, 2023, 04:52 PMGood points, as well as Blackpeter's post.

Given that it is such a relatively small value, why on earth (in other words: what was he thinking) would he not comply. He seemingly had so little to lose/ or gain with those shares, but so much to lose by hanging on to them.

Back in june 2020 the shares had dropped to $6.00. They are now $9.00. So that's 50% return on delaying.

Quote from: Minimoke on Jun 07, 2023, 04:55 PMBack in june 2020 the shares had dropped to $6.00. They are now $9.00. So that's 50% return on delaying.

Hmm - so, if the shares are now worth $13000, they were worth $8700 in June 2020.

This means he lost his job for gaining $4300, which is clearly less than a weeks worth of wages for him.

Not very smart.

But anyway, I accept your post that it's not about the meagre amount he might have made, it's about him not being able to follow simple instructions. And yes, hard to explain that bit for somebody they make a minister.

Here's how much Michael Wood's shares have increased in value since he was first asked to sell

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300899541/heres-how-much-michael-woods-shares-have-increased-in-value-since-he-was-first-asked-to-sell

I also found this interesting:
" It has been reported that Wood bought the shares as a teenager. The shares listed in February 1999 at an offer price of $1.80."

Politics and errors in judgment aside; good that a person starts thinking about investments at a young age.

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Jun 07, 2023, 06:26 PMHere's how much Michael Wood's shares have increased in value since he was first asked to sell

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300899541/heres-how-much-michael-woods-shares-have-increased-in-value-since-he-was-first-asked-to-sell

I also found this interesting:
" It has been reported that Wood bought the shares as a teenager. The shares listed in February 1999 at an offer price of $1.80."

Politics and errors in judgment aside; good that a person starts thinking about investments at a young age.

He clearly isn't very smart. I doubt he would have the intelligence to be buying shares as a teenager. I reckon if we dug deep someone else bought them for him. Why? Look at his declared shareholding. AIA and Contact. None others. If he was such a canny investor he would be holding more companies. He would also have been a student at the time and I'm not aware that christmas tree salesmen make enough money pre Christmas to be doing much other than buying a few beers. He graduated with a BA so clearly had an inclination to do as little as possible and it wasnt a commerce degree - which would align better with be an early market investor. In 1998 he went on a march against inequality - so a bit hypercritical of him the be a fat cat sharemarket investor the following year.

What we're seeing with Mister Wood is the sort of entitled arrogance that normally comes in during the last term of a three-term government.

Is it an omen?

The auckland council meeting  for the sale of AIA share showed a council of completely economic nit wits....

What a bunch of .....  DUMP NZ stocks... short the KIWI... flee the ship...

but wait maybe all the clever people are working in Private enterprise and as winner says .. All Good Then.

Seats.... the right is coming... no more red tape...  basically we need to get them to LIST everything that can make money...

Since the Virus it just not the right thing to do to Kiss babies...

No more public meetings ...

Hmailton a hot bed of Hocus pokus...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300902409/remember-when-politicians-used-to-kiss-babies-and-do-walkabouts

Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 11, 2023, 09:07 AMSince the Virus it just not the right thing to do to Kiss babies...

No more public meetings ...

Hmailton a hot bed of Hocus pokus...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300902409/remember-when-politicians-used-to-kiss-babies-and-do-walkabouts

David Seymour and co have all been busy doing public meetings.  Everywhere.  On street corners even.  Its one of the reasons I will be voting for him.  He's the only one really interested in hearing what voters have to say, and doing the hard yards in getting out there.  Everyone else just sits on their arse and puts out press releases.

https://www.davidseymour.org.nz/epsom-events

Yes and the Tax Payer union also ...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_230610

Parker wont turn up...

Absolutely disgusting and disgraceful this new directive to surgeons to prioritize surgery for Maori and Pacific Islanders over other races in NZ, no matter if others have been on the waiting list longer and/or are at more health risk. The surgeons can't believe it and they aren't the only ones, healthcare should be completely colorblind.

Official source please?

Quote from: Breezy on Jun 19, 2023, 10:20 AMAbsolutely disgusting and disgraceful this new directive to surgeons to prioritize surgery for Maori and Pacific Islanders over other races in NZ, no matter if others have been on the waiting list longer and/or are at more health risk. The surgeons can't believe it and they aren't the only ones, healthcare should be completely colorblind.

Quote from: Untamed on Jun 19, 2023, 10:41 AMOfficial source please?

The Herald/Stuff/Radio and all over social media.

Quote from: Breezy on Jun 19, 2023, 11:02 AMThe Herald/Stuff/Radio and all over social media.

None of that would be an "official source".

I've seen a link on reddit with the claim you are spreading, but lets face it - reddit is still less credible than twitter or youtube - smears and lies all over the place.

Not saying its not true, but maybe you could find a credible link and do some research before you make such hard hitting accusations.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 19, 2023, 11:33 AMNone of that would be an "official source".

I've seen a link on reddit with the claim you are spreading, but lets face it - reddit is still less credible than twitter or youtube - smears and lies all over the place.

Not saying its not true, but maybe you could find a credible link and do some research before you make such hard hitting accusations.

Time to wake up, its been confirmed by top health officials and is already in operation, I like Dr Shane Reti's response to this in the Herald, its spot on.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-surgeons-must-now-consider-ethnicity-in-prioritising-patients-for-operations-some-are-not-happy/ONGOC263IFCF3LADSRR6VTGQWE/

Auckland surgeons are now being required to consider a patient's ethnicity alongside other factors when deciding who should get an operation first.

Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand has introduced an Equity Adjustor Score, which aims to reduce inequity in the system by using an algorithm to prioritise patients according to clinical priority, time spent on the waitlist, geographic location (isolated areas), ethnicity, and deprivation level.

In the ethnicity category, Māori and Pasifika are top of the list, while European New Zealanders and other ethnicities, like Indian and Chinese, are lower-ranked.

Some surgeons, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the new scoring tool was medically indefensible. They said patients should be prioritised on how sick they were, how urgently they needed treatment, and how long they had been waiting for it - not on their ethnicity.

One of the surgeons said he was "disgusted" by the new ranking system.
"It's ethically challenging to treat anyone based on race, it's their medical condition that must establish the urgency of the treatment," the surgeon said.

If you are white or asian, and still voting Labour/Greens/Maori you literally have a death wish.  This policy has been in place for some time in terms of elective surgeries (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/121640802/mori-and-pasifika-given-priority-in-elective-surgery-waitlists), but now it is being applied to all surgeries.  By the time you are sick enough to get priority over Maori,  you will probably not even survive the surgery.  Killing off more white people is how they make Maori health look better.  Wake up people. 

I also dont see how this is going to attract healthcare professionals to NZ.  Who wants to breach their hippoocratic oath to work in a racist health system?

Quote from: Breezy on Jun 19, 2023, 11:44 AMTime to wake up, its been confirmed by top health officials and is already in operation, I like Dr Shane Reti's response to this in the Herald, its spot on.

There's other material on 'equity adjustment' on the Health.govt.nz and Te Whatu Ora websites, it's been going on for quite some time, since Ashley Bloomfield promoted it in 2019 and progressively rolling out to the wider health care sectors. It is also the umbrella policy for increased funding of health care workers.

Front page news in the Herald today.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-surgeons-must-now-consider-ethnicity-in-prioritising-patients-for-operations-some-are-not-happy/ONGOC263IFCF3LADSRR6VTGQWE/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-party-health-spokesman-dr-shane-reti-slams-new-surgery-ranking-policy-based-on-race/ZQMX42ENGNCUTBER7CUI2ZEX5Q/
Like many others I am absolutely sick and tired of this racism in the health system.
If I get Covid again I cannot get access to the antiviral Paxlovid because although I am at great risk being significantly overweight and over 60, however regardless of one's state of health or weight, if one is 50+ and a Māori or Polynesian the racism of this Govt means they are eligible.

Anyone know if I can buy Paxlovid at my own cost to mitigate this racism ?  I do have some concerns for my health here if I get it again, it really smashed me hard the first time.  Fortunately, we are not short of a quid and can afford to go private for Mrs B's knee operations, probably north of $60,000 for both knees now..  There seems little to no point going on the public health wait list now.

Quote from: Basil on Jun 19, 2023, 12:30 PMAnyone know if I can buy Paxlovid at my own cost to mitigate this racism ?  I do have some concerns for my health here if I get it again, it really smashed me hard the first time.  Fortunately, we are not short of a quid and can afford to go private for Mrs B's knee operations, probably north of $60,000 for both knees now..  There seems little to no point going on the public health wait list now.

You could probably drop by your local Mongrel Mob headquarters and ask to buy some.  

Quote from: Breezy on Jun 19, 2023, 11:44 AMTime to wake up, its been confirmed by top health officials and is already in operation, I like Dr Shane Reti's response to this in the Herald, its spot on.

If you read the article open-mindedly, it appears its not that simple-cut:

QuoteA number of studies and reports show Māori and Pacific people are less likely to be referred or accepted for treatment in the first place, and once in the system generally get less treatment. The Auckland District Health Board's own data show Māori and Pacific patients take longer after referral to have a procedure confirmed.

I agree however that two wrongs don't necessarily make one right ... it should be possible to find a better (and equal) measurement for all people to ensure equal access to the health system instead of compensating one wrong (difficult initial access for Maoris) with another wrong (preferential treatment for the lucky Maoris who made it into the health system). However - as some groups get in effect less (and overall later) treatment, it might not be the best time to exult in moral outrage.

Just wondering where all the outraged people have been when Maori's got cheated out of their land, when Maori kids got beaten up in school for speaking their mother tongue - and why did we never hear the outrage about the average life expectancy of Maoris being roughly 7 years less than that of the average Kiwi?

As well interesting in this context to read https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/maori-tamariki-continue-suffer-most-health-inequities-new-research-shows#:~:text=The%20research%20found%20that%20M%C4%81ori,of%20avoidable%20hospitalisations%20and%20deaths.

It says:

QuoteThe Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners is calling for urgent action to reduce health inequities for Māori, particularly Māori tamariki, following the release of new research from the Universities of Auckland and Otago last week.

The research found that Māori tamariki were unable to engage with primary healthcare, outpatient care, medicines and laboratory investigation to the same degree as non-Māori and had higher rates of avoidable hospitalisations and deaths. Perversely this has saved the health sector millions of dollars each year.

Looks like the government is damned if they do anything about the medical recommendations and damned if they don't.

If Maori choose not to engage with the FREE healthcare services that are offered to them, the answer is not to make white/asian people sicker and leave them to die.  Its investing in preventative care and education.  Performing surgery on people who don't need it as badly as someone else, just because their skin colour is brown, is disgusting.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 19, 2023, 05:36 PMAs well interesting in this context to read https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/maori-tamariki-continue-suffer-most-health-inequities-new-research-shows#:~:text=The%20research%20found%20that%20M%C4%81ori,of%20avoidable%20hospitalisations%20and%20deaths.

It says:

Looks like the government is damned if they do anything about the medical recommendations and damned if they don't.

Hopefully they will be damned by the voters at the upcoming election, its simply a case of choosing the lesser evil this time.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 19, 2023, 05:11 PMJust wondering where all the outraged people have been when Maori's got cheated out of their land, when Maori kids got beaten up in school for speaking their mother tongue - and why did we never hear the outrage about the average life expectancy of Maoris being roughly 7 years less than that of the average Kiwi?

Why would we be outraged about something that Maori bring on themselves.  Everyone knows obesity kills you.  Yet if Maori and Pasifika choose to be obese, somehow thats because the health system is racist and its the fault of white/asian people so they need to be punished by being denied medical care? 

The New Zealand Health Survey 2020/21 found that: "The prevalence of obesity among adults differed by ethnicity, with 71.3% of Pacific, 50.8% of Māori, 31.9% of European/Other and 18.5% of Asian adults obese".  Right there is your problem.  

Ditto for smoking ......Smoking rates among Māori women were 18.2% and among Māori men were 21.8% 

Smoking rates among Pacific women were 19.2% and among Pacific men were 16.9%  

Smoking rates among European/Other women were 6.2% and among European/Other men were 8.3%

Smoking rates among Asian women were 1.5% and among Asian men were 3.7%

You cant help those who won't help themselves.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 19, 2023, 05:36 PMAs well interesting in this context to read https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/maori-tamariki-continue-suffer-most-health-inequities-new-research-shows#:~:text=The%20research%20found%20that%20M%C4%81ori,of%20avoidable%20hospitalisations%20and%20deaths.

It says:

Looks like the government is damned if they do anything about the medical recommendations and damned if they don't.

If they were serious about health inequity they would focus on men.

We didn't hear much about it but it was Mens Health Week last week. Silence. Who cares about men.

"Men are on the back foot from the start. A boy born today will live nearly four years less than a girl born in the room next door. He will be over 20% more likely to die of a heart attack than the girl, and almost 30% more likely to get diabetes.

Worse, he is three times more likely to die by suicide or in a motor car crash."

Given men make approx 50% of the adult population youd'd think we would have a separate health authority for them

Quote from: Breezy on Jun 19, 2023, 06:35 PMHopefully they will be damned by the voters at the upcoming election, its simply a case of choosing the lesser evil this time.

It always is.

However - are we really sure the other side will be better? I shudder somewhat by the thought of gun lovers (ACT) climate change deniers (ACT), antivaxxers (ACT) and many untested candidates with questionable character (National) running the next government.

Honestly - I don't like the idea of a populist and race based left wing government either, but its a bit like the choice the ancient Greek sailors had when they had to choose whether they prefer to smash their boats against Skylla or allow Charybdis to destroy them.

So hard to find these days capable politicians representing the golden political middle.

 

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 20, 2023, 09:46 AMIt always is.

However - are we really sure the other side will be better? I shudder somewhat by the thought of gun lovers (ACT) climate change deniers (ACT), antivaxxers (ACT) and many untested candidates with questionable character (National) running the next government.

Honestly - I don't like the idea of a populist and race based left wing government either, but its a bit like the choice the ancient Greek sailors had when they had to choose whether they prefer to smash their boats against Skylla or allow Charybdis to destroy them.

So hard to find these days capable politicians representing the golden political middle.

 

Most gun lovers seem to be gangs who think nothing of shooting up neighborhoods with no doubt illegal guns.

Have you checked out NZ mean Sea level rise - basically nothing to see hear other than a well established century long linear trends. (And you might want to check out the IPSCC's latest report that has significantly reduced its 100 year temperature increase

The Antivaxxers are more aligned to Democracy NZ. Did you mean anti -mandate?

People of questionable character. Every party has those. And parliament is supposed to be a house of our representatives and who of us here are as pure as the driven snow?

Quote from: Minimoke on Jun 20, 2023, 10:21 AMMost gun lovers seem to be gangs who think nothing of shooting up neighborhoods with no doubt illegal guns.

Have you checked out NZ mean Sea level rise - basically nothing to see hear other than a well established century long linear trends. (And you might want to check out the IPSCC's latest report that has significantly reduced its 100 year temperature increase

The Antivaxxers are more aligned to Democracy NZ. Did you mean anti -mandate?

People of questionable character. Every party has those. And parliament is supposed to be a house of our representatives and who of us here are as pure as the driven snow?

Look - it sounds like you might be part of the problem. It doesn't feel we share the same values. It is easy to discourage undecided voters to support the centre right with populist statements like above - and you certainly won't convince anybody.

Sounds sort of self defeating to me, unless you want the Centre Left to win the next election.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 20, 2023, 11:03 AMLook - it sounds like you might be part of the problem. It doesn't feel we share the same values. It is easy to discourage undecided voters to support the centre right with populist statements like above - and you certainly won't convince anybody.

Sounds sort of self defeating to me, unless you want the Centre Left to win the next election.

Values tend to be based on emotion.

I prefer to look at the facts (which you seem to prefer to describe as a "populist statement". - hence my reference to NZ mean Sea Level rise. If you look at that (as just one example) you will see there is absolutely nothing to see here. Also check out the IPCC report - you will see they have revised their models downwards. Part of the solution will be people who can look at the facts - and create strategy based on those facts.

For the purposes of full disclosure I reckon the current government is Nz's worse ever. So anything thing that ensures they enjoy the next parliamentary term on the back benches is perfectly fine by me.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 20, 2023, 09:46 AMIt always is.

However - are we really sure the other side will be better? I shudder somewhat by the thought of gun lovers (ACT) climate change deniers (ACT), antivaxxers (ACT) and many untested candidates with questionable character (National) running the next government.

Honestly - I don't like the idea of a populist and race based left wing government either, but its a bit like the choice the ancient Greek sailors had when they had to choose whether they prefer to smash their boats against Skylla or allow Charybdis to destroy them.

So hard to find these days capable politicians representing the golden political middle.

 

Well I like small bore rifle shooting so must be a gun lover, I agree with Dr Judith Currys stance on climate change and I wasn't keen on the Pfizer vaccine but took 2 and no more thank you.

Local Government stuff.... stuffed ...  oh dear this lot look like real experts on future systems of funding.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/council-overhaul-mergers-and-billions-in-extra-funding-floated-to-future-proof-local-government/LCBXFO2LFZF4RKRFBPKVIAPDEE/

Notice the option for appointees...

 Obvious a whole lot of GOVT spending could be dumped for a start... 25 percent of staff fire and the rest listed on the market...

Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 21, 2023, 08:56 AMLocal Government stuff.... stuffed ...  oh dear this lot look like real experts on future systems of funding.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/council-overhaul-mergers-and-billions-in-extra-funding-floated-to-future-proof-local-government/LCBXFO2LFZF4RKRFBPKVIAPDEE/

Notice the option for appointees...

 Obvious a whole lot of GOVT spending could be dumped for a start... 25 percent of staff fire and the rest listed on the market...

I suppose another three waters rolling our way - just bigger!

A country where M Woods is PM in the next decade is truly astonishing ...

Hooten say yes he is in the running... COMIC country...

Bloody miserable Government not fronting up to help fund Taylor Swift gig ..so she not coming

Oz papers her two concerts over there possibly avoid a recession early next year ...so states and central govt front up.

Heck money for Americas Cup but not for Swifties ......what's the world coming to

Vote winner that one... the new world of sharing .. 

then Swift can save the economy...

Gosh its going to be RED under the Beds election adverts?  dancing Cossack?

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_230624

They are taking up ARMS in the deep south!!!!

Blimey they are going to make a run up the island for wellington...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132418111/invercargill-mayor-nobby-clark-called-out-for-creating-massive-racial-divide-with-his-antimori-comments

Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 26, 2023, 11:52 PMThey are taking up ARMS in the deep south!!!!

Blimey they are going to make a run up the island for wellington...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132418111/invercargill-mayor-nobby-clark-called-out-for-creating-massive-racial-divide-with-his-antimori-comments

Good on him I say.
3/Multi waters is a terrible thing. Along with proposed changes with the RMA reforms. (People unfamiliar with these things should learn about the power of the various Iwi Statements that are being provided for in these pieces of legislation.

In Canterbury we now have 2 unelected local Maori on our elected council. So if they don't perform we can't vote them out. And the problem with this "enhanced democracy" (as Willie Jackson likes to call it) is that its not just any Maori who get these seats, its Ngai Tahu. An originally northern tribe that entered the south island by conquest. And one of the tribes responsible for the deforestation of the south Island and extinction of several bird species.

And we now have a separate Maori Health Authority. Why? Men do not make use of health services and die  much earlier than women. If you want focused health care for an over represented part of the population it ought to be Men - since they make up approx 50% of the adult population.

Quote from: Waltzing on Jun 26, 2023, 11:52 PMThey are taking up ARMS in the deep south!!!!

Blimey they are going to make a run up the island for wellington...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132418111/invercargill-mayor-nobby-clark-called-out-for-creating-massive-racial-divide-with-his-antimori-comments

No thanks, you can keep the North Island.  We will be cutting the cable and defending the coastline from illegal NI asylum seekers arriving by boat.  

dont think the NI will be attempting the boat crossing till its warmer.... south safe at the moment...

E_zVN-GVUAIysNP.jpg

Quote from: KW on Jun 27, 2023, 02:55 PME_zVN-GVUAIysNP.jpg

There is a significant error on the passport - Clearly the country name must read: Mainland!

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jun 28, 2023, 10:00 AMThere is a significant error on the passport - Clearly the country name must read: Mainland!

"South Island" is indeed correct as we are the worlds most southern island containing civilized, decent and democratic life. (We include Stuart Island as it is connected - you just cant see the connection because of the sea that covers it.  We arent dissimilar to, say Solomon Islands or Marshall Islands

"Mainland" is just a colloquial expression.

It is only by our good grace and kind hearts that we allow exports to the lesser civilised North and Western Islands.

Really think someone needs to run a print of these as i think a lot of them would actually sell!!!

Its not too late for us to secede and become East Australia.  Then we'd get big submarines and a real air force to defend us from NI marauders.  Not that they will be able to do much up there when we cut the electricity.

in STUFFED they are saying the country is "STUFFED"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132454223/the-country-is-stuffed-petrol-pain-is-back-and-not-just-at-the-pumps

Its not a hung one...then there is a hung beehive and then its not...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132557398/national-act-have-enough-support-to-form-a-government-latest-poll-suggests

Acting on a whim ... Time  is Nigh.

Act and the Treaty... whitty...

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBNZ875NZ875&q=the+time+is+nye&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1wamyiqOAAxX8jVYBHQ6aDY0QBSgBegQIBxAC&biw=1920&bih=937

The buzzying in my head dear  leader my Chippie ... the buzzing just doesnt go away ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/justice-minister-kiri-allans-arrest-and-resignation-absolutely-devastating-colleagues-reacts/Z2FN24JOKJHZZJJJH32WB4FEMA/

Another one bites the dust ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

Quote from: Waltzing on Jul 24, 2023, 11:33 AMThe buzzying in my head dear  leader my Chippie ... the buzzing just doesnt go away ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/justice-minister-kiri-allans-arrest-and-resignation-absolutely-devastating-colleagues-reacts/Z2FN24JOKJHZZJJJH32WB4FEMA/

Another one bites the dust ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

Gosh what a horrible end for our minister of justice. I can't recall a worse ending for any minister in NZ. Can't help but feel sorry for how it ended for her, very sad.

The chances of the current lot getting in again are well in truly gone I think. It's Nationals to loose.

Share Guy think your being very gracious  indeed. Yes sad stuff and im sure there will be others checking in with there doctors asking for anti depress tablets... maybe EBOS  has recovered on news that tablets are flying off the shelves ,,, must ask a PDH chemist dispenser .   PHD bio chem teachers next to be replaced by on line teaching and now do time in chemist shops... what will AI replace next ... Political everyone?  No surely not an AI PM?

Quote from: Waltzing on Jul 24, 2023, 06:18 PM... what will AI replace next ... Political everyone?  No surely not an AI PM?

Now there's a thought....

It is. But nobody should underestimate their ability to do just that.

Quote from: Shareguy on Jul 24, 2023, 03:38 PMIt's Nationals to loose.

Labour lost its minister of justic... they had to call in the trackers dogs to find her!!!

where is our minister shes gones AWOL!!!  call out the dogs!!!!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300936477/police-dogs-used-after-kiri-allan-found-away-from-crashed-car


WHO lets the dogs out !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkuu0Lwb5EM

Lets face its all gone to the DOGS!!!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300936477/police-dogs-used-after-kiri-allan-found-away-from-crashed-car

WHO WHO WHO ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkuu0Lwb5EM

Gosh, just when I thought it couldn't get worse.

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Jul 28, 2023, 12:41 AMGosh, just when I thought it couldn't get worse.

But it does  - and we stil have three months until the election.

The Minister of Revenue David Parker quit due to Hipkins Capital Gains Tax Captain Call

And Minister of Finance Grant Robertson is not keen on taking GST off Food. (News that has been leaked out of secret Caucus to National)

"Capital Gains Tax Captain Call"

Wealth Tax call....

They are different technical Taxes....

Just automate the Tax Department with F AI and all other departments... save a fortune and hand out vouchers ... Come back Roger D!

F-AI can hand out the Vouchers!!!

Support for Labour crashes ..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-new-poll-shows-labour-crashing-nzf-rising-and-national-act-with-enough-support-to-govern/HNJHVHFYWRBY3HO735BBDFTHFA/

Oh the reforms that never were and a country locked in a spiral of ever increasing social ministry building...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300948132/damien-grant-will-national-and-acts-strained-relationship-hurt-their-election-chances

We all know its a policy that is perfect for the average person and they know it good for them too...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-zealand-tax-experts-respond-to-gst-free-fruit-and-vegetables/EVZXXQYZSJH35BQCZZW2ADSSZE/

No creds left by the looks of it..

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300949957/tova-obrien-labours-gst-own-goal-the-gnarliest-weve-seen-all-fifa-womens-world-cup

Seems my Savings on GST free veggies will be used to fund my fuel tax.

Fuel tax will increase 12 cents for new transport projects and road repairs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132761629/fuel-tax-will-increase-12-cents-for-new-transport-projects-and-road-repairs

700 Grand just disappeared for music and funkie stuff...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/maori_health_website

Quote from: Waltzing on Aug 22, 2023, 10:10 AM700 Grand just disappeared for music and funkie stuff...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/maori_health_website

Gosh that's a worry. Can't be right surely.

Who knows !!!

They arnt perfect at the Tax payer union but maybe it was a Billy T joke....

No break down ; No receipts then? Someone forgot to bring them back to HQ?   

Apparently Seymour wants to Blow up govt ministries and surely floating them on the stock market would be a better idea as there might be some value in them... you know like My Food Bag ... or the mine that is a fake mine ... or that education group ? Heck OCA is still solvent isnt it?

Come on Seymour float them dont blow up tax payer dollars well spent...

Ministry of Business and stuff... but someone said here that the MOBS wont last long as a going concern they would not buy shares in it?

Grim its looking GRIM... erp,  float the Ministry of Bull SHit.... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLoImpAr9fA

Speaking of See More....

TVNZ Breakfast host apologises for misquoting ACT leader David Seymour

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/300955228/tvnz-breakfast-host-apologises-for-misquoting-act-leader-david-seymour

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Aug 22, 2023, 11:55 PMSpeaking of See More....

TVNZ Breakfast host apologises for misquoting ACT leader David Seymour

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/300955228/tvnz-breakfast-host-apologises-for-misquoting-act-leader-david-seymour

TVNZ need to apologize for the "Money for News" political scam they are currently running

The scam is they still present it as 'news'.  Funnier that they take themselves so seriously.  One-sided propaganda is more like it.  Same goes for print and websites.

Quote from: Minimoke on Aug 23, 2023, 10:16 AMTVNZ need to apologize for the "Money for News" political scam they are currently running

Someone (Shareguy?) said a while back the election is National's (and ACT's)  to lose. This won't help:

Act Party candidate Elaine Naidu Franz resigns after comparing vaccine mandates to Nazi concentration camps

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/act-party-candidate-resigns-after-comparing-vaccine-mandates-to-nazi-concentration-camps/RJEMTRDYVFGO5KXVLA4JAP3RNI/

And so the dirty politics begins.  Is that 3 years old?

Journalists should trawl through old social media posts of ALL politicians and wannabe politicians.  Not just the ones they dislike.  And then look at the behaviour of ALL politicians while they were in school decades ago too and also look into their partners dealings from decades ago. /s

But that is wishful thinking.  Never forget that the goal of a journalist is to further their own career at the expense of someone else's.  And if that involves "shifting the numbers" for their own side (Katie Bradford's words) then double bonus for them.

Double standards abound given behaviours of MPs over the last 6 years with zero repercussions.  Is it 7 weeks left for this inept and divisive coalition of chaos?  The labour front bench has less depth than my bird bath.

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Aug 24, 2023, 12:57 AMSomeone (Shareguy?) said a while back the election is National's (and ACT's)  to lose. This won't help:

Act Party candidate Elaine Naidu Franz resigns after comparing vaccine mandates to Nazi concentration camps

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/act-party-candidate-resigns-after-comparing-vaccine-mandates-to-nazi-concentration-camps/RJEMTRDYVFGO5KXVLA4JAP3RNI/

I was always worried that ACT turns into a safe harbour for the rabbit hole dwellers intermingling with the hard right. Always a difficult balance act.

On the other hand - National used to harbour as well a bunch of bullies, idiots and socially tone deafs on their list and as MP candidates.

Admittedly - there are plenty of bad examples as well on the left side of the spectrum, and their not any more hidden racist agenda worries me. Seems to be difficult these days to find decent people volunteering for a political job.

What an amazing choice we will have this coming election ...

Quote from: BlackPeter on Aug 24, 2023, 11:10 AMI was always worried that ACT turns into a safe harbour for the rabbit hole dwellers intermingling with the hard right. Always a difficult balance act.

On the other hand - National used to harbour as well a bunch of bullies, idiots and socially tone deafs on their list and as MP candidates.

Admittedly - there are plenty of bad examples as well on the left side of the spectrum, and their not any more hidden racist agenda worries me. Seems to be difficult these days to find decent people volunteering for a political job.

What an amazing choice we will have this coming election ...

Those that like rabbit holes have NZLoyal to go to this year.

Quote from: Minimoke on Aug 24, 2023, 11:53 AMThose that like rabbit holes have NZLoyal to go to this year.

True, but some of the Rabbit hold dwellers picked their new political hole already prior to this amazing alternative emerging, and hey - there is the self procalimed bishop as well.

Anyway - the more rabbit holes, the merrier, if they can keep the rabbit hold dwellers away from the more decent parties of the political spectrum.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Aug 24, 2023, 11:10 AMAdmittedly - there are plenty of bad examples as well on the left side of the spectrum....

True, they're everywhere.

As the country descends into  a new social experiment does it have a bright new future? You be the judge if the traditional 3 R's have now morphed into "Random Ram Raiders from Raetihi..."

although the famous town might object as it may not yet have incortporated a local chapter or even had a single event ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/132835078/gone-in-90-seconds-youths-compete-to-steal-cars-in-unprecedented-crime-wave

Quote from: Waltzing on Aug 30, 2023, 07:11 AMAs the country descends into  a new social experiment does it have a bright new future? You be the judge if the traditional 3 R's have now morphed into "Random Ram Raiders from Raetihi..."

although the famous town might object as it may not yet have incortporated a local chapter or even had a single event ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/132835078/gone-in-90-seconds-youths-compete-to-steal-cars-in-unprecedented-crime-wave

Some additional reporting in a parallel article:


Youths as young as 12 leave parts of Christchurch in lockdown in near-three hour crime rampage

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/canterbury/300961172/youths-as-young-as-12-leave-parts-of-christchurch-in-lockdown-in-nearthree-hour-crime-rampage

Which party has the best solution? Because whatever parties had proposed up to now does not seem to be effective (any more).

Just how corrupt are government departments in NZ.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayers_union_raises_concerns_mfe

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 06, 2023, 05:26 PMJust how corrupt are government departments in NZ.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayers_union_raises_concerns_mfe

It is well known its the left leaning foot soldiers in the government departments that are driving a lot of the social agenda change we are currently experiencing. Ministers are giving it a silent nod of approval.

3 days and 3 separate incidents of misinformation (aka lies) from Labour ministers.  Disgraceful.

Quote from: Ferg on Sep 07, 2023, 07:53 PM3 days and 3 separate incidents of misinformation (aka lies) from Labour ministers.  Disgraceful.

Won't be there much longer by the look of it.

Ive felt the prevailing winds and they come from the north west says Winston...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132910835/mori-are-not-indigenous-winston-peters-claims

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 10, 2023, 07:31 PMIve felt the prevailing winds and they come from the north west says Winston...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132910835/mori-are-not-indigenous-winston-peters-claims

Is he trying to get a reaction or publicity.....or both?

Slightly on topic, there is archeological evidence of human habitation of Poukawa in Hawkes Bay thousands of years ago:
https://celticnz.co.nz/PoukawaRevisited/PoukawaPart1.html

Old wesbite style where you click "Continue" at the bottom of the page.  It is fascinating reading.

Probably some one a cast away who got lost .. funny thing is why would you want to stay here instead of sail back in your super fast cat with sails to a warmer climate.... why did they stay....

it doesnt make sense... were they told "Dont come back"...

All western sailors went home even to cold england... no one went home from here...

why not .... to cold in the south island unless you know there was no hope of sailing back or you werent welcome home....

was the fishing better here?

Winston needs some more votes and well after that last poll labour might as well resign now..

according to winston there will be NO Growth this year or next... NONE... no bulging middle classes.. its like NO Bananas today ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132915133/winston-peters-to-air-nz-so-why-dont-you-change-your-name-to-air-aotearoa

He sums it up and it ant pretty...  Herald poll of polls paints a grim outlook for the Labby dogs,,,,

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/focus-david-seymour-responds-to-todays-prefu/4KT77EZBO2X726LSPAFSSYL2WI/

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 12, 2023, 05:42 PMHe sums it up and it ant pretty...  Herald poll of polls paints a grim outlook for the Labby dogs,,,,

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/focus-david-seymour-responds-to-todays-prefu/4KT77EZBO2X726LSPAFSSYL2WI/

He does.

However not sure, what he was smoking when he (earlier) threatened to support National just on Confidence (not Supply). The result would be a government not more reliable than the Labour/Green/Maori bunch on the left side.

How much better could he possibly support Labour other than by supporting their argument that a National/ACT government (hopefully without Winnie thrown in for good measure) would be as unreliable and unstable than the alternative Labour/Green/Maori coalition?

Yes some times he a bit all over the place but if Winston makes it watch out ... very unstable ... and what ever in their minds when they bounce out of bed or creak ...

So crime is currently out of control as criminals are free to run amok, but in the PREFU Labour stated the budget was being CUT for Police, down from $2.5B a year to $2.3B a year.  Woohoo, lets DEFUND THE POLICE!  But wait, havent Labour promised an extra 335 police officers???  God, they lie through their teeth that lot.  

Found this out by reading The Australian.  I havent seen the NZ media pick up on this.  
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/nz-a-model-of-fiscal-rectitude-go-figure/news-story/b28245aa71832b8984378cd9c38bacd3?amp

"Despite rising crime, police apparently will be cut from $NZ2.5bn this financial year to $NZ2.3bn in 2026-27. With record numbers of Kiwis seeking housing assistance, Labour claims spending on housing and community development will fall from $NZ2.9bn to $NZ2.1bn across the same period. Spending on education and defence will remain static despite widespread concerns about collapsing standards and last month's National Security Strategy demanding new investments in equipment and personnel. Labour also claims it will slash nearly $NZ2bn out of the Wellington bureaucracy.
Despite these cuts, Treasury forecasts another $NZ12bn of borrowing across the next four years, on top of the $NZ30bn Labour admitted in its budget in May. The forecasts also rely on enormous net immigration across just four years. After accounting for New Zealanders expected to leave, Treasury predicts net inward migration of 250,000, mainly from India and China.
The immigration floodgates are already open, with nearly 100,000 net arrivals in the past 12 months. That has pushed per-capita GDP down by nearly 2 per cent across the same period."

Quote from: KW on Sep 14, 2023, 05:22 PMSo crime is currently out of control as criminals are free to run amok, but in the PREFU Labour stated the budget was being CUT for Police, down from $2.5B a year to $2.3B a year.  Woohoo, lets DEFUND THE POLICE!  But wait, havent Labour promised an extra 335 police officers???  God, they lie through their teeth that lot. 

Found this out by reading The Australian.  I havent seen the NZ media pick up on this. 
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/nz-a-model-of-fiscal-rectitude-go-figure/news-story/b28245aa71832b8984378cd9c38bacd3?amp

"Despite rising crime, police apparently will be cut from $NZ2.5bn this financial year to $NZ2.3bn in 2026-27. With record numbers of Kiwis seeking housing assistance, Labour claims spending on housing and community development will fall from $NZ2.9bn to $NZ2.1bn across the same period. Spending on education and defence will remain static despite widespread concerns about collapsing standards and last month's National Security Strategy demanding new investments in equipment and personnel. Labour also claims it will slash nearly $NZ2bn out of the Wellington bureaucracy.
Despite these cuts, Treasury forecasts another $NZ12bn of borrowing across the next four years, on top of the $NZ30bn Labour admitted in its budget in May. The forecasts also rely on enormous net immigration across just four years. After accounting for New Zealanders expected to leave, Treasury predicts net inward migration of 250,000, mainly from India and China.
The immigration floodgates are already open, with nearly 100,000 net arrivals in the past 12 months. That has pushed per-capita GDP down by nearly 2 per cent across the same period."

And don't forget that National is lying as well with their tax plans ... well, so far their funding seems to involve a lot of fairy dust. But maybe they just live in an alternative reality, do they?

Looks like the NZ voter gets to choose between Incompetence and lying ... though I suppose both political camps have a bit of everything.

No significant donations to the Labour Party from businesses in over two years

"Not a single business has made a substantial donation to the Labour Party since the start of 2021.
During the same period, National received $1.1 million from businesses. ACT received $375,000 and the Green Party $100,000.
According to donation returns published by the Electoral Commission, Labour received no business donations over $15,000 during 2021 or 2022 and no donations over $20,000 in 2023.

The last time businesses donated to the Labour Party was 2020."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300970685/no-significant-donations-to-the-labour-party-from-businesses-in-over-two-years

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Sep 15, 2023, 03:13 AMNo significant donations to the Labour Party from businesses in over two years

"Not a single business has made a substantial donation to the Labour Party since the start of 2021.
During the same period, National received $1.1 million from businesses. ACT received $375,000 and the Green Party $100,000.
According to donation returns published by the Electoral Commission, Labour received no business donations over $15,000 during 2021 or 2022 and no donations over $20,000 in 2023.

The last time businesses donated to the Labour Party was 2020."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300970685/no-significant-donations-to-the-labour-party-from-businesses-in-over-two-years

Nonsense. Several excellent business have donated $50,000 each to Labour. Theres the Rail and Maritime Trans Port Union and the Maritime Union of NZ (Trevor Mallards old haunt - I bet he is still carrying his Card). Plus $35,000 from Meat Workers Union and $90,000 from E Tu union. Good to know Union Members get paid so much they can pay subs that fund such generous donation.

Business gave nothing much? thats why JC left... no money coming in...

and those others probably had to pay up or else...

Who care if the NATS tax policy doesnt add up.. LX will simple do what any CEO does to balance the books and take the knife to something...

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 15, 2023, 08:34 PMWho care if the NATS tax policy doesnt add up..

Meanwhile Labour are borrowing how many hundreds of millions every week to fill their fiscal hole?  And they plus the media want to criticise others for not balancing their books?  Give me a break....and their PREFU has nothing in there for Auckland light rail....risible!

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 15, 2023, 08:34 PMBusiness gave nothing much? thats why JC left... no money coming in...

and those others probably had to pay up or else...

Who care if the NATS tax policy doesnt add up.. LX will simple do what any CEO does to balance the books and take the knife to something...

I guess the question is not whether he can make it work somewhow, but why he decided to bust his credibility already before the election. Why not just tell the people what he plans to cut? This would be a refreshing change from the least transparent government ever ...

Clearly - the tax cut as they promised it is not workable (well, not funded - anyway). Which means they are just a similar bunch of liars than the other side.

I'd prefer to have an honest politician running the show, but maybe that (honest politician) is an oxymoron - though both ACT as well as Green seem to be better in that regard than National or Labour. I like some of their policies (yes, from both of them), I dislike some of their policies (yes, from both), but I think they both basically tell us what we are going to get from them.

Problem is just - ACT is dependent on a lot of weirdos I would not want to have any influence on politics (like various conspiracy theorists including  antivaxers and the gun lobby ... and the Greenies are dependant on another group of weirdos (ex-communist party) I would not like to have any impact on politics either.

Sigh - they make it this time really tough to pick the smaller evil. Only problem is - passing the election is not an option.

ACT has indeed said what it intends to do...

LX... they made us do it ... running a company is keep your options open and he may say they gave it a go but the world is a spinning rock and some bit flew out of our control...

its obvious they are going to take the knife to stuff... he doesnt want to scare the ponies...

"Meanwhile Labour are borrowing how many hundreds of millions "

actually is it a devaluation coming from the markets when it figures its a "land of the long white clouds and no silver lining?"

Now if your busy with the grand world wide reopening and your busy figuring out when and where your off to in the next 2 years you probably wont be turning on Kiwi TV ... listen to Pie tasting from the HUT and musings from X CEO's or Winston telling you your a Wokie Donkie Donkey...

is there anything to consider except you want a change?

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 16, 2023, 09:50 AMProblem is just - ACT is dependent on a lot of weirdos I would not want to have any influence on politics (like various conspiracy theorists including  antivaxers and the gun lobby ... and the Greenies are dependant on another group of weirdos (ex-communist party) I would not like to have any impact on politics either.

Why is the gun lobby a weirdo?

Thats like saying you are a weirdo?

That is just your opinion. 15% plus NZers would disagree with you. Thats a large chunk. I am a firearm's license holder. I support the right of citizens to have guns. Does that make me a weirdo? In your book maybe. In mine not.

Quote from: blackcap on Sep 23, 2023, 07:07 AMWhy is the gun lobby a weirdo?

Thats like saying you are a weirdo?

That is just your opinion. 15% plus NZers would disagree with you. Thats a large chunk. I am a firearm's license holder. I support the right of citizens to have guns. Does that make me a weirdo? In your book maybe. In mine not.

OK - Lets talk guns, shall we.

Allow me to point you to an essential mistake in you quite short (and quiet weird, if I may say so) post. You talk about the "right of citizens to have guns". Wrong. There is no such right in our society and neither in any international agreement we signed up to. People do have in all decent societies a right to some basic human rights (including the right to live, the right of free speech, the right of free association,  the right of free movement and the right to live in some dignity). There is however no right to wear arms in any society I consider as decent.

Before you mention the US - a society which puts a "right" to wear arms above the right of their children to live is neither decent nor civilised. Bunch of weirdos who accept tens of thousands of dead people every year just to satisfy some sick loonies and to make the weapons lobby still richer. Sad.

So, after we have established that - in some societies it is still a privilege (not a right!) to allow citicens to possess and wear arms for hobby purposes. Fine with me, as long as the process ensures that these weapons don't get used to infringe on other peoples essential rights (like their right to live and not to be harmed by others).

The New Zealand gun lobby clearly is not able to control that, and they still fight a weapons register and ask for semiautomatic weapons to be reintroduced to allow the next sicko to kill tens of innocent people while worshipping.

It is sad that ACT sold out their soul (and yes, they used to have one, but it appears they discovered a market niche for more votes which was more important for them than basic decency) when they moved from being the "Association of Consumers and Taxpayers" to pushing the interests of the gun lobby just to pop up their votes.

Actually - I used to vote for them several times in the past couple of decades, but they certainly lost my vote when they embrazed the gunholders. I prefer to live in a country where it is the role of the police to remove bad people with guns from the road.

Its very difficult to find a party to vote for isnt it...

Not happy to vote for parties taxing so called wealth... hard to vote for a green party that has more stuff that looks like communism... hard to vote for any party when you think about it...

national a middle of the road do nothing radical...

Labor  red party ... color of death...every party will have something a person doesnt like..

small parties should stick to a small set of policies that reflect their main objectives...

But then they would not be able to expand the voting base...

not happy about guns but ...

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 23, 2023, 02:48 PMOK - Lets talk guns, shall we.

Before you mention the US - a society which puts a "right" to wear arms above the right of their children to live is neither decent nor civilised. Bunch of weirdos who accept tens of thousands of dead people every year just to satisfy some sick loonies and to make the weapons lobby still richer. Sad.

Even in the US assault rifles barely register in gun crime - the majority is committed with hand guns.
https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/

You might also be interested to know that in New York State only 1.7% of shooters were white. 
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2021-enforcement-report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3ojf17tvEC3HHHldn3b3KkBmtbDrdRBHZys61i8BDPkMqnfAv7yQq6Weo

So the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding, non murdering, non weirdos.  Like NZ with Maori gangs committing most of the gun crime here, the US gun crime is mostly gang related and committed by blacks and hispanics, and making more guns illegal does nothing to change their access to them because the legal market simply becomes an illegal black market and gives gangs another source of income alongside their drug activity.  So if you have access to a gang member, you have access to a gun.

As for the sickos who want to kill people, they will still find a way.  Simply driving a truck through a mall can do more damage than a gun - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack (86 dead, 434 injured).  Do we ban trucks?

While I dont own a gun, I know people who do.  None of which are weirdos.  They do like to hunt however, and in the event of a zombie apocalypse or alien invasion, I know exactly who I will be moving in with.  The rest of you can fend for yourselves lol

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 24, 2023, 12:47 PMIts very difficult to find a party to vote for isnt it...

Not happy to vote for parties taxing so called wealth... hard to vote for a green party that has more stuff that looks like communism... hard to vote for any party when you think about it...

national a middle of the road do nothing radical...

Labor  red party ... color of death...every party will have something a person doesnt like..

small parties should stick to a small set of policies that reflect their main objectives...

But then they would not be able to expand the voting base...

not happy about guns but ...

Do you want more of the same - vote Labour
Do you want things to get even worse - vote Greens/TPM
Do you want things to be marginally improved - vote National
Do you want substantive change - vote ACT
Do you want to just throw a spanner in the works - vote NZ First

I think that about sums it up  ;D

Quote from: KW on Sep 24, 2023, 01:00 PMDo you want more of the same - vote Labour
Do you want things to get even worse - vote Greens/TPM
Do you want things to be marginally improved - vote National
Do you want substantive change - vote ACT
Do you want to just throw a spanner in the works - vote NZ First

I think that about sums it up  ;D

Very zuscint and clear Thank you!   I vas very confused on how the NZ political zystem vorked before this post.  Zo if you vant 'zubstantial change' vithout gun violence, by ze process of elimination,  you must vote vor 'Te Pāti Māori' then?  Eez my old mate Hone Heke standing zees time?  He seems to have gone very quiet for these last 170 years.

RB

 

If you want to write to the IMF and tell them they got there numbers wrong and the current NZ GOVT got it right go ahead... i dont think they will reply...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_230923

Quote from: Red Baron on Sep 24, 2023, 07:58 PMVery zuscint and clear Thank you!  I vas very confused on how the NZ political zystem vorked before this post.  Zo if you vant 'zubstantial change' vithout gun violence, by ze process of elimination,  you must vote vor 'Te Pāti Māori' then?  Eez my old mate Hone Heke standing zees time?  He seems to have gone very quiet for these last 170 years.

RB

 

Since TPM want to abolish prisons and let Maori criminals go free, its a fair bet that a vote for TPM will increase gun violence not lessen it. 

Quote from: KW on Sep 24, 2023, 01:00 PMDo you want more of the same - vote Labour
Do you want things to get even worse - vote Greens/TPM
Do you want things to be marginally improved - vote National
Do you want substantive change - vote ACT
Do you want to just throw a spanner in the works - vote NZ First

I think that about sums it up  ;D

I'm disappointed you havent got Liz Gunns NZ Loyal on the list. They could be a game changer with their potential minimum 6 seats in parliament.

Quote from: KW on Sep 24, 2023, 12:52 PMEven in the US assault rifles barely register in gun crime - the majority is committed with hand guns.
https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/

You might also be interested to know that in New York State only 1.7% of shooters were white. 
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2021-enforcement-report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3ojf17tvEC3HHHldn3b3KkBmtbDrdRBHZys61i8BDPkMqnfAv7yQq6Weo

So the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding, non murdering, non weirdos.  Like NZ with Maori gangs committing most of the gun crime here, the US gun crime is mostly gang related and committed by blacks and hispanics, and making more guns illegal does nothing to change their access to them because the legal market simply becomes an illegal black market and gives gangs another source of income alongside their drug activity.  So if you have access to a gang member, you have access to a gun.

As for the sickos who want to kill people, they will still find a way.  Simply driving a truck through a mall can do more damage than a gun - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack (86 dead, 434 injured).  Do we ban trucks?

While I dont own a gun, I know people who do.  None of which are weirdos.  They do like to hunt however, and in the event of a zombie apocalypse or alien invasion, I know exactly who I will be moving in with.  The rest of you can fend for yourselves lol

There is a difference between trucks and guns.

In 2021 more than 48000 people in the US got killed by guns (including suicide), while less than 4000 got killed by trucks (42k road deaths times 9% caused by trucks).

Trucks are needed for a modern society to function, while guns are not.

And hey, trucks are registered and you need a licence to drive them. Might not stop all truck related killings, but lets face it - ways more people are killed through gunviolence than killed by a truck.

There is no good reason why anybody in any society needs to possess a semiautomatic weapon or a handgun for hobby purposes unless their is a system which can guarantee that there will be no damage to other peoples rights.

And yes, I take my chances on the aliens attack ...  If they have the technology to come to our planet, than I suppose being peaceful would give you a much higher chance to survive when they come. No need to allow millions of morons to arm themselves to just kill themselves and innocent bystanders for the unlikely event some aliens might visit.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 25, 2023, 12:21 PMThere is a difference between trucks and guns.

In 2021 more than 48000 people in the US got killed by guns (including suicide), while less than 4000 got killed by trucks (42k road deaths times 9% caused by trucks).

Trucks are needed for a modern society to function, while guns are not.

And hey, trucks are registered and you need a licence to drive them. Might not stop all truck related killings, but lets face it - ways more people are killed through gunviolence than killed by a truck.

There is no good reason why anybody in any society needs to possess a semiautomatic weapon or a handgun for hobby purposes unless their is a system which can guarantee that there will be no damage to other peoples rights.

And yes, I take my chances on the aliens attack ...  If they have the technology to come to our planet, than I suppose being peaceful would give you a much higher chance to survive when they come. No need to allow millions of morons to arm themselves to just kill themselves and innocent bystanders for the unlikely event some aliens might visit.

There is however a pesky thing known as the United States Constitution which enshrines an individuals rights.

NZ has something similar - called our Bill of Rights. We don't take it as seriously as Americans take their Constitution. We let short term politicians and office holders ride roughshod over ours.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 25, 2023, 04:02 PMThere is however a pesky thing known as the United States Constitution which enshrines an individuals rights.

NZ has something similar - called our Bill of Rights. We don't take it as seriously as Americans take their Constitution. We let short term politicians and office holders ride roughshod over ours.

What a lough ... nobody of the US gunlobby cares about a persons right to live. The only part of the US constitution they seem to be able to parrot is the second amendment.

And just for your info - the US constitution is absolutely irrelevant for our free land. In our lucky land does not every idiot have "the right" to wear arms and kill others.

Ever read the bill of rights? Where does it say that everybody has the right to possess semiautomatic weapons? What about small nukes? ... See?

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 25, 2023, 05:42 PMnobody of the US gunlobby cares about a persons right to live.

You got a source for that?

Thought not......you make stuff up.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 25, 2023, 12:21 PMThere is no good reason why anybody in any society needs to possess a semiautomatic weapon.

The people of Ukraine would disagree.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 25, 2023, 12:21 PMThere is no good reason why anybody in any society needs to possess ...[snip]... a handgun for hobby purposes.

Yep, except for pest control, self defence, target practice & competitions.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 25, 2023, 12:21 PM[snip... unless their is a system which can guarantee that there will be no damage to other peoples rights.

Your qualification is meaningless given no such system exists for cars, trucks, trains, aeroplanes, knives, rolling pins, saucepans, machetes, cleavers, or any other hand held implement or motorised form of transport.

I get it...you don't like guns but you need a better argument.

well hes back over 5 percent ....

chaos .... but  stock market could like the results..

 

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 25, 2023, 06:29 PMwell hes back over 5 percent ....

chaos .... but  stock market could like the results..

 

Yep. I can already hear the talkback callers from last time
saying " I did not think he would go with labour"

revenge ... hes out for UTU ...

hes going to make labours life and any hokie donkie wokie  lifes a misery ...

all new quotes to come ...

could vote for him ...  only joking ... but then again they are all a bit un voteable ... but maybe better to have a chaos centre right than a communist left..

 

Quote from: Waltzing on Sep 25, 2023, 07:33 PMrevenge ... hes out for UTU ...

hes going to make labours life and any hokie donkie wokie  lifes a misery ...

all new quotes to come ...

could vote for him ...  only joking ... but then again they are all a bit un voteable ... but maybe better to have a chaos centre right than a communist left..

 

Agree with your statement that most parties appear currently to be unelectable. But its hard to go through all the policies of all the parties.

Question - did you run through this vote compass on the TVNZ website? Vote Compass is a tool developed by political scientists to help you explore how your views align with those of the parties.

Interesting exercise ...

https://votecompass.tvnz.co.nz/nz2023

VoteNZ is dodgy from the start. Always be cautious  of political experts form universities.

And look at warped questions such as number 3. "People who identify as women but were assigned male at birth should be allowed to compete in women's sports leagues."

No one is assigned something at birth. People are either the male or the female of the human species (bar a very small number in the population.

A better question would be "Should Trans Women Be allowed to compete in women's sports leagues"

I did one awhile ago.  The questions were very vague and non-defined.  Like "should criminals go to jail for minor offences?".  Well, that begs the question of what is considered a "minor offence" doesnt it?  My definition of a minor offence is shoplifting a pack of chips.  Someone else (but not me) might think that shoplifting a thousand dollars worth of meat from a supermarket every other day is a minor offence.  I dont think any form of violent crime (from domestic abuse to beating a guy at the bus station) is a minor offence, but it would seem the courts disagree with me when they hand out 6 months HD to serial rapists and those involved in barbaric murders.  

Another one was "do you think people should be able to get welfare benefits".  Well the answer to that is of course, but not forever, and they should be forced to go off the benefit as soon as possible.  But there is no follow up question as to how long you think benefits should be available for.  

WLL BP i havnt had time to take any notice of anything except a headline..
 
But the Tax payer union has some fun posts and podcasts...

sometimes country's just want change...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_230923

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 26, 2023, 10:57 AMVoteNZ is dodgy from the start. Always be cautious  of political experts form universities.

And look at warped questions such as number 3. "People who identify as women but were assigned male at birth should be allowed to compete in women's sports leagues."

No one is assigned something at birth. People are either the male or the female of the human species (bar a very small number in the population.

A better question would be "Should Trans Women Be allowed to compete in women's sports leagues"

Actually - I found the exercise really useful - and hey, nobody is required to follow their analysis. They don't tell you which party to vote for, they just show you which of the parties align most with your views. It is just another data point to help you to do your own research.

I am always weary of people who run around with a closed mind because they are afraid to learn something which might be inconsistent with the preaching in their rabbit hole.

Always learning ....

And not that it matters, but when the registry office issued your birth certificate they assigned your gender. Sure- for most people it is just a confirmation of the biological gender and straight forward, but for some it is not (like for hermaphrodites). So, the question might be awkward, but it is correctly asked. Registry office used to assign the gender if there were doubts. I don't think they still do that, but they used to.

Quote from: KW on Sep 24, 2023, 12:52 PMEven in the US assault rifles barely register in gun crime - the majority is committed with hand guns.
https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/

You might also be interested to know that in New York State only 1.7% of shooters were white. 
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2021-enforcement-report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3ojf17tvEC3HHHldn3b3KkBmtbDrdRBHZys61i8BDPkMqnfAv7yQq6Weo

So the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding, non murdering, non weirdos.  Like NZ with Maori gangs committing most of the gun crime here, the US gun crime is mostly gang related and committed by blacks and hispanics, and making more guns illegal does nothing to change their access to them because the legal market simply becomes an illegal black market and gives gangs another source of income alongside their drug activity.  So if you have access to a gang member, you have access to a gun.

As for the sickos who want to kill people, they will still find a way.  Simply driving a truck through a mall can do more damage than a gun - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack (86 dead, 434 injured).  Do we ban trucks?

While I dont own a gun, I know people who do.  None of which are weirdos.  They do like to hunt however, and in the event of a zombie apocalypse or alien invasion, I know exactly who I will be moving in with.  The rest of you can fend for yourselves lol

:P
 

Putting it plainly, more restrictive firearms law reduces the risks of firearms injury and deaths, especially mass shootings deaths.  130 studies in 10 countries evidence this.  Never mind the USA, next door, in Australia, there were 13 fatal mass shootings from 1979-1996. After the gun law reforms in 1996 there were none until 2018.

I agree most NZ gun owners are, "law abiding, non murdering, non weirdos." You'd expect that with quarter of a million gun license holders.  The streets would be rivers of blood otherwise.  Why would any of the owners have need for a military style assault rifle?

No hunter in their right mind uses a military style semi automatic or a military assault weapon.  Anyway, with a gun license you can still, with a firearms license, buy semi-automatics - that are suitable for hunting and pest control purposes but limit the number of rounds.

I don't know where you get your stat that Māori gangs are, "committing most of the gun crime here."  That aside, of all NZ gun homicides from 2004-2019 64% of victims were shot with a .22 calibre rifle or a shotgun. Hand guns (pistols and revolvers) may dominate in US crime but that is not the case here.
 
Finally; the strawman truck argument. No, there is no need to ban trucks.  We have laws that restrict truck use.  This is to prevent harm.  Gun control does the same.  Our gun control laws remain very liberal - much more liberal than Australia.  The NZ gun lobby's desire to reverse what restrictions we do have is concerning.  It is concerning that this voice is prominent in ACT and in their promise to bring back military style assault rifles to NZ.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 27, 2023, 09:10 AMActually - I found the exercise really useful - and hey, nobody is required to follow their analysis. They don't tell you which party to vote for, they just show you which of the parties align most with your views. It is just another data point to help you to do your own research.

I am always weary of people who run around with a closed mind because they are afraid to learn something which might be inconsistent with the preaching in their rabbit hole.

Always learning ....

And not that it matters, but when the registry office issued your birth certificate they assigned your gender. Sure- for most people it is just a confirmation of the biological gender and straight forward, but for some it is not (like for hermaphrodites). So, the question might be awkward, but it is correctly asked. Registry office used to assign the gender if there were doubts. I don't think they still do that, but they used to.

I did the vote thing and ended up pretty much on the spectrum where I expected - which is just a bit to right of center. Which I find very odd because today many of my views are considered extreme right wing.

Now, I wasn't there at the time. I was just a bit little and I couldn't hold a pen. So I am assuming the process is roughly the same today as it was back then. Which is my parents completed the birth registration forms. And on those forms they would have ticked the box of my "sex" (even today there is no room for a gender to be specified). It was pretty obvious for me because they could see the genetalia. Which is exactly the same for approx 50% of the new born population. The other approx 50% being the opposite sex. Now if I had been one of those exceptionally rare newborns where the doctor or midwife couldn't determine my sex there is a box "indeterminate" to tick.

I'm pretty confident this was the process when I was born. Because that was before Dr Money started with his perverted research and then launched the modern social construct now better known as "gender"

Birth.png

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 27, 2023, 03:25 PMI did the vote thing and ended up pretty much on the spectrum where I expected - which is just a bit to right of center. Which I find very odd because today many of my views are considered extreme right wing.

Now, I wasn't there at the time. I was just a bit little and I couldn't hold a pen. So I am assuming the process is roughly the same today as it was back then. Which is my parents completed the birth registration forms. And on those forms they would have ticked the box of my "sex" (even today there is no room for a gender to be specified). It was pretty obvious for me because they could see the genetalia. Which is exactly the same for approx 50% of the new born population. The other approx 50% being the opposite sex. Now if I had been one of those exceptionally rare newborns where the doctor or midwife couldn't determine my sex there is a box "indeterminate" to tick.

I'm pretty confident this was the process when I was born. Because that was before Dr Money started with his perverted research and then launched the modern social construct now better known as "gender"

Birth.png

You might enjoy this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WID6w4_gtwo&ab_channel=ComedyCentre)

Gender is a social construct.  Sex is biological.  You either have an XX chromosome or an XY one, and that is immutable.  It doesnt matter if you cut off your genitalia or not, you cannot alter your DNA.  

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 27, 2023, 03:25 PMI did the vote thing and ended up pretty much on the spectrum where I expected - which is just a bit to right of center. Which I find very odd because today many of my views are considered extreme right wing.

Now, I wasn't there at the time. I was just a bit little and I couldn't hold a pen. So I am assuming the process is roughly the same today as it was back then. Which is my parents completed the birth registration forms. And on those forms they would have ticked the box of my "sex" (even today there is no room for a gender to be specified). It was pretty obvious for me because they could see the genetalia. Which is exactly the same for approx 50% of the new born population. The other approx 50% being the opposite sex. Now if I had been one of those exceptionally rare newborns where the doctor or midwife couldn't determine my sex there is a box "indeterminate" to tick.

I'm pretty confident this was the process when I was born. Because that was before Dr Money started with his perverted research and then launched the modern social construct now better known as "gender"

Birth.png

Assuming that NZ used to be similar to other countries, than they didn't had 50 or 60 years ago this third box. And if the parents didn't made a tick, the registry officer decided for them (e.g. assigned the gender).

Quote from: KW on Sep 27, 2023, 05:12 PMGender is a social construct.  Sex is biological.  You either have an XX chromosome or an XY one, and that is immutable.  It doesnt matter if you cut off your genitalia or not, you cannot alter your DNA. 

Wise words. However - how did they determine the chromosomes of a baby before say the 1970'ies?

On top of that - the chromosomes sometimes disagree with the genitalia ... and both of them sometimes disagree with how a person feels about herself inside.

Who are you to determine who of these three is right?

Not sure, though what all of this has to do with politics ...

So far, Walmart, Whole Foods, and Target have closed stores in the Democrat run hellholes of New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Portland and Seattle.  It should be clear by now that "defunding" the police and allowing criminals to remain free to continue committing crimes instead of jailing them, is not working. 


https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/26/target-says-it-will-close-nine-stores-citing-violence-and-theft-.html

How long before stores in NZ start shutting down for the same reason?  All the do-gooders out there fail to realise that it is them, and all of us, who pay for these crimes.  The cost of theft just gets added to the price of goods that law abiding citizens pay for.  Its one of the reasons why grocery prices are still going up. 

Earlier this year:

Ram raids: Michael Hill forced to close 'exposed' Takapuna store due to repeat robberies

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/why-michael-hill-had-to-close-one-of-its-flagship-stores/MY2PP6RJJBFVJKRI754SMLXVRM/

Quote from: BlackPeter on Sep 27, 2023, 05:30 PMAssuming that NZ used to be similar to other countries, than they didn't had 50 or 60 years ago this third box. And if the parents didn't made a tick, the registry officer decided for them (e.g. assigned the gender).

We didn't have "gender" 60 years ago. It is a reasonably modern social construct with one of the main developers being Dr Money.

The registry officer may have made a decision on what box to tick (I have no idea  but its your argument so burden falls on you to prove it) but if he did he would have ticked a "sex" box. And would have got it right for pretty much 100% of the new born population.

Heres a 1940 birth cert. No mention of sex. Or gender
https://stocktalk.co.nz/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1139;type=preview

Or howabout this in 1960. Its the NZ Stats report on our population. It only talks and reports on 2 "sex's" - not one single mention of "gender"

https://www3.stats.govt.nz/New_Zealand_Official_Yearbooks/1960/NZOYB_%201960.html#idsect1_1_18461

Which is precisely why the surgery some transgender people choose to have to complete their transition, is referred to as "gender reassignment surgery.

Nobody is claiming it is possible to change one's biology. But it is possible for someone to modify their gender to more closely align with the gender they identify with. I, personally don't like the "identify with" tag as it doesn't accurately reflect the reality of being trans and is more about non-trans people needing a label because they struggle to understand what it means to be transgender.

Quote from: KW on Sep 27, 2023, 05:12 PMGender is a social construct.  Sex is biological.  You either have an XX chromosome or an XY one, and that is immutable.  It doesnt matter if you cut off your genitalia or not, you cannot alter your DNA. 

Quote from: Untamed on Sep 28, 2023, 08:41 AMWhich is precisely why the surgery some transgender people choose to have to complete their transition, is referred to as "gender reassignment surgery.

Nobody is claiming it is possible to change one's biology. But it is possible for someone to modify their gender to more closely align with the gender they identify with. I, personally don't like the "identify with" tag as it doesn't accurately reflect the reality of being trans and is more about non-trans people needing a label because they struggle to understand what it means to be transgender.

"gender reassignment" is fascinating. How is that we have got to the point that we think a person is defined by their reproductive organs and we are prepared to support the physical changes to those organs so a person can feel better aligned with the gender they choose to assign themselves.

I wonder if we would find it acceptable if we supported Race Reassignment Surgery, because race also is a social construct and some people may feel they are born to the wrong race.

And I'm not sure there are many people out there who would support the removal of limbs from those people suffering from Body Integrity Dysphoria.

And how odd this has become such a political football.

What odds on a hung parliament?  ACT has got a wee bit of the wobbles - down to 8.8% on the latest poll.  They do themselves no favours when the push the nice but dim, Karen Chhour into the media.

Quote from: Hectorplains on Sep 28, 2023, 11:11 AMWhat odds on a hung parliament?  ACT has got a wee bit of the wobbles - down to 8.8% on the latest poll.  They do themselves no favours when the push the nice but dim, Karen Chhour into the media.

I'm not discounting that possibility - Seems to me as each day that goes by this is becoming a mare likely proposition.

Labour seem to be bleeding votes to the Greens. And NZ First. And National  and ACT seem to be bleeding votes to NZ First.

National and ACT don't have enough votes to have a clearly majority in the house. So its going to come down NZ First success.

I'm a bit staggered on how short term memories Kiwis have. Winston hasn't worked in a National led Government since 1998. Since then he has work with Labour 2005 - 2008 and 2017-2020. And it was obvious in his Coalition Acceptance speech he was a long way removed form Nationals core principles. Its crazy to think Winston can be trusted to support a national led government. Which leaves him defacto supporting Labour. Is this what NZ really wants? (We'll find out on the 14th)

This is what people fail to comprehend. Nobody chooses to be transgender, anymore than they choose to be heterosexual or homosexual. It is simply how they are. What they can choose, is whether or not they transition to the gender they instinctively feel they are. Some trans people choose hormone therapy and/or gender reassignment surgery. Many do not. There is no right or wrong way to be trans. Every trans person is simply wanting to live their life in the gender they "are" regardless of what their biological sex is. They are hurting nobody. Yet so many people seem incapable of even trying to understand what it means to be transgender, or to demonstrate any level of empathy. Not compassion - empathy.

I have said this elsewhere and people took offence at it, but a big part of the current societal "disgust" with all things trans, is the influence of porn. For whatever reason, a small percentage of trans people have found their way into the porn industry - more than likely, for financial reasons. But, I can categorically tell you - the way you see transgender portrayed in porn, is so far removed from the reality, it is doing a huge disservice to trans people. It is just not like that. It just isn't. And before anyone gets their knickers in a knot at the suggestion they may watch porn - lots of people do. Male and female. Unless it becomes an "issue" there is zero judgement on my part.

Anyway, I know I am wasting my time trying to enlighten anyone, but as the friend of someone who is transgender, I have a duty to at least try.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 28, 2023, 10:13 AM"gender reassignment" is fascinating. How is that we have got to the point that we think a person is defined by their reproductive organs and we are prepared to support the physical changes to those organs so a person can feel better aligned with the gender they choose to assign themselves

I wonder if we would find it acceptable if we supported Race Reassignment Surgery, because race also is a social construct and some people may feel they are born to the wrong race.

And I'm not sure there are many people out there who would support the removal of limbs from those people suffering from Body Integrity Dysphoria.

And how odd this has become such a political football.

Quote from: Untamed on Sep 28, 2023, 01:51 PMThis is what people fail to comprehend. Nobody chooses to be transgender, anymore than they choose to be heterosexual or homosexual. It is simply how they are. What they can choose, is whether or not they transition to the gender they instinctively feel they are. Some trans people choose hormone therapy and/or gender reassignment surgery. Many do not. There is no right or wrong way to be trans. Every trans person is simply wanting to live their life in the gender they "are" regardless of what their biological sex is. They are hurting nobody. Yet so many people seem incapable of even trying to understand what it means to be transgender, or to demonstrate any level of empathy. Not compassion - empathy.

I have said this elsewhere and people took offence at it, but a big part of the current societal "disgust" with all things trans, is the influence of porn. For whatever reason, a small percentage of trans people have found their way into the porn industry - more than likely, for financial reasons. But, I can categorically tell you - the way you see transgender portrayed in porn, is so far removed from the reality, it is doing a huge disservice to trans people. It is just not like that. It just isn't. And before anyone gets their knickers in a knot at the suggestion they may watch porn - lots of people do. Male and female. Unless it becomes an "issue" there is zero judgement on my part.

Anyway, I know I am wasting my time trying to enlighten anyone, but as the friend of someone who is transgender, I have a duty to at least try.

In case there is any confusion I didn't say a person chooses to be transgender. I said they choose the gender they assign to thmesleves.

The starting point is that a person does not feel comfortable in the body they find themselves in. And for some this causes distress. From this point the person can choose from one of at last 100  other gender ideates that they now been recognized. Once the choice of which genders most closely aligns with the feeling associated with the body the person can then choose whether or not to go through reassignment options. Of which there is now a growing choice. From puberty blockers, chest binding to full on physical surgery.

And it is something very different from sexual orientation - and it would be wrong to conflate the two. It was morally wrong, and now illegal to suggest that a persons sexual orientation can be changed. Conversion therapy is out lawed. Yet we continue to recgonise gender conversion is fine.

No they don't. They "are" the gender they instinctively feel they are. The only choice they make, is whether or not to undertake the medical interventions I mentioned.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 28, 2023, 02:59 PMIn case there is any confusion I didn't say a person chooses to be transgender. I said they choose the gender they assign to thmesleves.

The starting point is that a person does not feel comfortable in the body they find themselves in. And for some this causes distress. From this point the person can choose from one of at last 100  other gender ideates that they now been recognized. Once the choice of which genders most closely aligns with the feeling associated with the body the person can then choose whether or not to go through reassignment options. Of which there is now a growing choice. From puberty blockers, chest binding to full on physical surgery.

And it is something very different from sexual orientation - and it would be wrong to conflate the two. It was morally wrong, and now illegal to suggest that a persons sexual orientation can be changed. Conversion therapy is out lawed. Yet we continue to recgonise gender conversion is fine.

Quote from: Untamed on Sep 28, 2023, 03:46 PMNo they don't. They "are" the gender they instinctively feel they are. The only choice they make, is whether or not to undertake the medical interventions I mentioned.

Lets try this .

Say there is a monastery and its all full of men and boys. No women at all to be seen 24 hours a day. No womanly or outside influences. They are just basically hermits. And one day a one week old boy is dropped off in a basket on the door step. And this boy grows older. And later in life gets this really strong feeling he is not in the right body. To the point he is quite distressed about it it. How does he know what is the "right' body?

(Veering off topic a bit I know. But identity politics seems to be quite the thing nowadays)

This is really not the place to have this discussion, but the vast majority of people who are transgender, have known it, since they were very young. They didn't have a label for it of course, but they had a strong, inherent knowledge of who they were, and they knew their physical body, did not match that feeling/knowledge. I get that it is hard to understand, especially for men, but it is actually not rocket science if one has an open mind. I have a friend who is transgender. I cannot share her personal story for obvious reasons, but what I can tell you is this. For the sake of clarity, let's assume that one's biological sex is female or male. And  that gender is woman or man. My friend was biologically male, but she knew from the age of about 3-4, that she was a girl. There were no outside influences or pressures from parents or anyone else (her parents did not become aware of it until much later). She is a few years older than me, so back then transgender was not a topic of public discussion. So again, no outside influences of any kind. But she knew. She even had a girl's name for herself - which she now uses, some 60 years later. She has been on hormone therapy for many years, but sadly, has never been able to afford gender reassignment surgery (she is in the US). She shared a very detailed and enlightening story with me when I first met her, and while she may not be a biological female, she is every bit a "woman" as I am. One's gender is not related solely to one's physical body. Which is the bit so many people struggle to understand. Trans people are not trying to be biological females/males. They are just trying to live a normal life as the woman or man they "are" in every sense of the word, other than biologically. Nobody is forcing anyone to be transgender. Nobody is manipulating anyone. Nobody is doing reassignment surgery on kids or young teenagers. Trans people pose no more threat to the general population, or to our kids, than anyone else does. They are far more likely to be victims of rape or violent attacks, than are they are, to be perpetrators. They are human beings just like you and I, and they deserve to be able to live their lives in peace, without judgement and ridicule, or prejudice.

That is all I have to say.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 28, 2023, 04:19 PMLets try this .

Say there is a monastery and its all full of men and boys. No women at all to be seen 24 hours a day. No womanly or outside influences. They are just basically hermits. And one day a one week old boy is dropped off in a basket on the door step. And this boy grows older. And later in life gets this really strong feeling he is not in the right body. To the point he is quite distressed about it it. How does he know what is the "right' body?

(Veering off topic a bit I know. But identity politics seems to be quite the thing nowadays)

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 28, 2023, 07:13 AMWe didn't have "gender" 60 years ago. It is a reasonably modern social construct with one of the main developers being Dr Money.

The registry officer may have made a decision on what box to tick (I have no idea  but its your argument so burden falls on you to prove it) but if he did he would have ticked a "sex" box. And would have got it right for pretty much 100% of the new born population.

Heres a 1940 birth cert. No mention of sex. Or gender
https://stocktalk.co.nz/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1139;type=preview

Or howabout this in 1960. Its the NZ Stats report on our population. It only talks and reports on 2 "sex's" - not one single mention of "gender"

https://www3.stats.govt.nz/New_Zealand_Official_Yearbooks/1960/NZOYB_%201960.html#idsect1_1_18461

How is any of this relevant for the discussion? 

Hey guys, I am happy to see this has remained civil given the topic of discussion. Regardless, please end the discussion of gender/sex here. It has no relevance to investing, is controversial and high risk in terms of causing complaints or bad blood.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 28, 2023, 12:36 PMI'm not discounting that possibility - Seems to me as each day that goes by this is becoming a mare likely proposition.

Labour seem to be bleeding votes to the Greens. And NZ First. And National  and ACT seem to be bleeding votes to NZ First.

National and ACT don't have enough votes to have a clearly majority in the house. So its going to come down NZ First success.

I'm a bit staggered on how short term memories Kiwis have. Winston hasn't worked in a National led Government since 1998. Since then he has work with Labour 2005 - 2008 and 2017-2020. And it was obvious in his Coalition Acceptance speech he was a long way removed form Nationals core principles. Its crazy to think Winston can be trusted to support a national led government. Which leaves him defacto supporting Labour. Is this what NZ really wants? (We'll find out on the 14th)

Tova O'Brien (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979460/tova-podcast-why-a-cohesive-act-and-nz-first-coalition-is-near-impossible-to-conceive) thinks a NAT-ACT-NZF alliance would struggle to govern together, like "petrol meets fire." 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Sep 29, 2023, 09:22 AMTova O'Brien (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979460/tova-podcast-why-a-cohesive-act-and-nz-first-coalition-is-near-impossible-to-conceive) thinks a NAT-ACT-NZF alliance would struggle to govern together, like "petrol meets fire." 

I'm not a big fan of Tova - I reckon she is  really biased. So I don't follow her musings.

But I don't see how anything with NZ First in it will work. Winston has had a few opportunities and blown them all. And Seymour has made it quite clear he wil really struggle to be in the same room.

Given I tend to err centre right (and I most certainly don't want to see Labour, Greens or maori party back in government I only see one positive election result And that is a National /Act majority government.

If NZ First are required in coallition or support to get that majority it will be a fail.

National / ACT cannot govern with less than 61 seats. Peter has said he won't go into government with Labour. But what he hasnt said is what he will do if he is forced to sit on the cross benches along side Labour.

I think it is quite possible for the results ending up with Labour, NZ First, Greens and Maori party holding the majority of the seats. And this would be a disaster for NZ.

The only solution is to not vote NZ First. Its time to keep Winston in the comfort to which he has become accustomed. And not give him another shot at meddling.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 29, 2023, 03:54 PMI'm not a big fan of Tova - I reckon she is  really biased. So I don't follow her musings.

But I don't see how anything with NZ First in it will work. Winston has had a few opportunities and blown them all. And Seymour has made it quite clear he wil really struggle to be in the same room.

Given I tend to err centre right (and I most certainly don't want to see Labour, Greens or maori party back in government I only see one positive election result And that is a National /Act majority government.

If NZ First are required in coallition or support to get that majority it will be a fail.

National / ACT cannot govern with less than 61 seats. Peter has said he won't go into government with Labour. But what he hasnt said is what he will do if he is forced to sit on the cross benches along side Labour.

I think it is quite possible for the results ending up with Labour, NZ First, Greens and Maori party holding the majority of the seats. And this would be a disaster for NZ.

The only solution is to not vote NZ First. Its time to keep Winston in the comfort to which he has become accustomed. And not give him another shot at meddling.

That Peters is in the picture at all beggars belief.  He's like ringworm.  Itchy and irritating, hard to treat and just when you think you've finally seen the end of it... dang it's back again. 

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 29, 2023, 03:54 PMNational / ACT cannot govern with less than 61 seats.

Wasn't there an example under FPP in NZ where the ruling party appointed a speaker from the opposition benches to ensure a slim majority?  Interesting thought experiment...but could be complicated by any TPM overhang.

Quote from: Hectorplains on Sep 29, 2023, 05:12 PMThat Peters is in the picture at all beggars belief.  He's like ringworm.  Itchy and irritating, hard to treat and just when you think you've finally seen the end of it... dang it's back again.

Reminds me of an old joke ... Which is the odd one out in this list:  Herpes, HPV, the common cold and Winston Peters?

The common cold given you can't get rid of the others.

Quote from: Ferg on Sep 29, 2023, 09:00 PMWasn't there an example under FPP in NZ where the ruling party appointed a speaker from the opposition benches to ensure a slim majority?  Interesting thought experiment...but could be complicated by any TPM overhang.
Reminds me of an old joke ... Which is the odd one out in this list:  Herpes, HPV, the common cold and Winston Peters?

The common cold given you can't get rid of the others.

the speakers vote goes automatically to his/her party on most votes. I dont recall what happens with conscience bills - i think the speakers vote goes wherever he wants it.i suspect brownlee will be next speaker

Mayor Brown is providing the unlikeliest boost to Labour. Strange days indeed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuuhsqA95iA)...

He's delivered a horror budget scenario, with a starting point for rates rising of 13% and water bills by more than 20%. This while the misery of this years rises of 7.7% for rates 9.5% in water is still forefront in Auckland's minds and emptier wallets . (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-council-pencils-in-sky-high-rates-and-water-bills-for-next-year/FCECF6LY6ZHWRJRV3UES2XLXSU/) "A new Government could also make things worse, the mayor said, citing National's plans to abolish the Regional Fuel Tax and scrap Labour's Three Waters reforms."

National need to get out of second gear.  This is a prime example of their populist policy tripping them up.  The need to immediately scrap the 11.5 cents a litre Regional Fuel Tax has not been explained.  They can't even give a timeframe for the change to 'congestion charging' let alone sell the benefits. Now it's biting them on the bum.

National should be laser focused on policy addressing the living crisis.  It is the number one concern for Kiwi punters. Even Labour supporters are worried at the economic mis management of the country.  Instead, National are sloppy and making too much distracting noise.  They have themselves to blame for the spectre of NZF rising again.

Quote from: Minimoke on Sep 30, 2023, 11:05 AMthe speakers vote goes automatically to his/her party on most votes. I dont recall what happens with conscience bills - i think the speakers vote goes wherever he wants it.i suspect brownlee will be next speaker

Agreed, Speakers tend to go on the party list rather than contest electorate seats.  National release their list on Oct 14.  Brownlee will be in  the top 5 because he is a board nominee.

I think that there are a few people who see a non-Labour government as inevitable, and so will vote for NZ First in the hope that Mister Peterswill apply the handbrake from time to time.

Still others are maliciously looking forward to the spectacle of Luxon, Peters, and Seymour each dancing to the beat of their own drummer.

Quote from: Henry Filth on Sep 30, 2023, 12:45 PMI think that there are a few people who see a non-Labour government as inevitable, and so will vote for NZ First in the hope that Mister Peterswill apply the handbrake from time to time.

Still others are maliciously looking forward to the spectacle of Luxon, Peters, and Seymour each dancing to the beat of their own drummer.

The issue is that National is just not garnering enough support. If they did NZF wouldn't be even an issue. 

The strategy to present Luxon as the new Key is dumb.  National's campaign to present Luxon's common touch is not working.  He comes across as sketchy as he's clearly trying to be what he's not.  He doesn't need to be liked, but he does need to be trusted.  He's not going to win on personality.   

The so called cost of living crisis should offer all he needs to shine.  National needs to claim the middle.  This tough on crime and mega prisons twaddle is distracting and it's ACT's territory, leave it to them.

Worse still Luxon is woefully underprepared.  That question about Peters was always coming in the last debate.  To repeatedly answer, "I don't know him" was a disaster.  Where have you been the last forty years, Chris?  Have you not followed any politics in that time!  It makes him look both meek and disingenuous. 

It feels like an election that Labour is losing, rather than one National is winning.

   

I think that governments have what you might think of as a natural lifespan.

I think that since the second world war New Zealand has gravitated to a three-term government by National or National-led governments, whereas Labour has managed one-term (1957 & 1973), two-term (1987), and three-term (1999) governments.

I think Labour are set to continue this in 2023.

As for Labour losing as opposed to National winning, when did you ever hear anyone say "Vote the b*st*rds in?

Quote from: Henry Filth on Oct 01, 2023, 10:07 AMAs for Labour losing as opposed to National winning, when did you ever hear anyone say "Vote the b*st*rds in?

Haha that's true.  I suspect that's why there's never been much public support for a  four year term. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xd81cj7pA)

I agree too that National will sleepwalk to a victory of some sort or other... the 'other' being with Winston (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpUtAYfUGk).  A Pyrrhic victory?

I'm disappointed in National's 100 day plan released today. Under "Rebuild the economy and reduce the cost of living" is a mess of policy that doesn't really do either of those things, certainly nothing directly about the cost of living.  The messaging is off. They're their own worst enemy in giving Peters the space to work his...(cough) magic.

Quote from: Henry Filth on Oct 01, 2023, 10:07 AMAs for Labour losing as opposed to National winning, when did you ever hear anyone say "Vote the b*st*rds in?

This is precisely why we are stuck in this never-ending cycle of rinse and repeat politics.

I detest the fact that the current election mantra is "vote for anyone - as long as we get Labour out!" That is not how it should be, and it makes a mockery of the whole process. We just keep doing it election after election and are prepared to "settle" for the best of a really bad bunch.

We should be voting for the party we want to govern - not merely voting against the party we want to lose.

It looks like Covid has cast its vote  :P

What a shame we can't listen to more of his riveting rhetoric for a while  ;)

Quote from: Basil on Oct 01, 2023, 03:09 PMWhat a shame we can't listen to more of his riveting rhetoric for a while  ;)

i was wondering what new lies he was going to come up with. Guess I'll have to wait a week.

Great debate with Winston Peters and red Jack this morning on Q&A.

Two very smug and smarmy characters go head to head, what could possibly go wrong lol

Quote from: Hectorplains on Sep 30, 2023, 01:29 PMThe issue is that National is just not garnering enough support. If they did NZF wouldn't be even an issue. 

I vaguely recall someone saying in 2002 when National did so poorly under Bill English with PM HC in office that due to the changing face of NZ demographics, National will never again achieve a clear majority with Labour benefitting.

Can't remember who said it; too long ago.

Quote from: Onemootpoint on Oct 02, 2023, 01:26 AMI vaguely recall someone saying in 2002 when National did so poorly under Bill English with PM HC in office that due to the changing face of NZ demographics, National will never again achieve a clear majority with Labour benefitting.

Can't remember who said it; too long ago.

Majority government by any one party is rare under proportional representation anyway.  It's really about try to limit the number of coalition partners you need and most importantly how much power they have by virtue of how much vote they achieved.  National is making a poor fist of this. Sure New Zealand's changing demographic may count against you but you have to control what is in your means to do so.  Most of where they're going wrong in that is Communications 101 stuff. 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Oct 02, 2023, 09:14 AMMajority government by any one party is rare under proportional representation anyway.  It's really about try to limit the number of coalition partners you need and most importantly how much power they have by virtue of how much vote they achieved.  National is making a poor fist of this. Sure New Zealand's changing demographic may count against you but you have to control what is in your means to do so.  Most of where they're going wrong in that is Communications 101 stuff. 

True ...

one of their last cock ups was Luxon boosting over the weekend in response to a reporters question that he won't work together with any other small party, after approving populist NZ First as potential coalition partner (and obviously ACT as their de facto right-wing appendix).

No matter, what he really wants to do after the election, anybody with a gram of operating matter between the ears would have hold his options open instead of limiting his options already prior to any coalition negotiations.

I am really wondering whether Luxon is fit for the job as PM, if he can't even get the absolute basics right.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 02, 2023, 10:51 AMTrue ...

one of their last cock ups was Luxon boosting over the weekend in response to a reporters question that he won't work together with any other small party, after approving populist NZ First as potential coalition partner (and obviously ACT as their de facto right-wing appendix).

No matter, what he really wants to do after the election, anybody with a gram of operating matter between the ears would have hold his options open instead of limiting his options already prior to any coalition negotiations.

I am really wondering whether Luxon is fit for the job as PM, if he can't even get the absolute basics right.

Luxton has already ruled out Greens and Maori party. They are too far removed from fundamental principles. And it goes without saying he wouldn't enter into discussions with Labour.

Given it is highly unlikely any other party will enter parliament (TOP maybe an exception if Raph Manji wins Ilam) Then Luxons comments over the weekend seem spot on.

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 02, 2023, 11:30 AMLuxton has already ruled out Greens and Maori party. They are too far removed from fundamental principles. And it goes without saying he wouldn't enter into discussions with Labour.

Given it is highly unlikely any other party will enter parliament (TOP maybe an exception if Raph Manji wins Ilam) Then Luxons comments over the weekend seem spot on.

So - what was then the need to make these comments? And yes, he explicitely did exclude TOP, which in the view of many Liberals makes National unelectable under Luxon, considering that National used earlier to cut off their very own liberal wing.

TOP is as liberal as it can get ... and the only things Luxon signalled by excluding them is either that he has no clue how politics works (which might be true) and that he has the habit of damaging his own cause before he goes into negotiations, which he did.

Make no mistake - he damaged his negotiation position and reduced his voting base without getting anything in return. Plain dumb.

Just imagine after the elections a situation where he could have negotiated a coalition with either TOP or NZF, reducing that way the political price he has to pay, no matter who would have won? Luxon dashed this opportunity for National without any need - and Peters can now clearly go and extract maximum price for his support. Peters will go all the way lauging to the elections, knowing that Luxon removed himself any alternative he could have. Peters will already dream about all these huge baubles Luxon gifted to him with his incompetence.

What I am saying is - if Luxon is acting already that dumb in a very simple situation (rule #1 of any negotiation - don't limit your choices without gaining anything) ... how much damage will this greenhorn do to the country if he ends up as PM?

Looks like NZ is screwed, no matter how the election goes.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 02, 2023, 11:59 AMSo - what was then the need to make these comments? And yes, he explicitely did exclude TOP, which in the view of many Liberals makes National unelectable under Luxon, considering that National used earlier to cut off their very own liberal wing.

TOP is as liberal as it can get ... and the only things Luxon signalled by excluding them is either that he has no clue how politics works (which might be true) and that he has the habit of damaging his own cause before he goes into negotiations, which he did.

Make no mistake - he damaged his negotiation position and reduced his voting base without getting anything in return. Plain dumb.

Just imagine after the elections a situation where he could have negotiated a coalition with either TOP or NZF, reducing that way the political price he has to pay, no matter who would have won? Luxon dashed this opportunity for National without any need - and Peters can now clearly go and extract maximum price for his support. Peters will go all the way lauging to the elections, knowing that Luxon removed himself any alternative he could have. Peters will already dream about all these huge baubles Luxon gifted to him with his incompetence.

What I am saying is - if Luxon is acting already that dumb in a very simple situation (rule #1 of any negotiation - don't limit your choices without gaining anything) ... how much damage will this greenhorn do to the country if he ends up as PM?

Looks like NZ is screwed, no matter how the election goes.

I wasn't aware Luxon had excluded TOP. At best TOP is only up for a couple of seats. But I think, given the absence of an ACT candidate in Ilam "right" voters will get in behind National. Which will see TOP staying as a minnow outside parliament.

I can't comment on TOP policies as I havent seen them. But I recall Manji was in favour of the Living Wage for council workers and contractors - so on that basis its a "no" from me so can't be bothered in investing the time to learn more about their polices.

Luxon may be smarter than we give credit for. He may be seen as leaving the door open to NZ First. But NZ First may implode and not get 5% so nothing lost. Its still a National /ACT coalition

As far as I am concerned NZ is doomed if we have another Labour / Green / Maori party coalition. I know it is an extraordinarily low bar, but any government that isn't that one will be better. So I am a bit more optimistic.

Oh dear......poor old James Shaw has been caught in a lie about his (not) qualifications.  Here is all the evidence anyone needs of a complicit media - imagine if this was done by any other politician even slightly to the right of Chairman Mao.  Crickets.

Shaw lied about his BA.  So how did he get the job at PWC?  And how did he get his Masters from Bath if he didn't have his Bachelors degree from Vic?  Come on MSM.....where are you?


Sources:
https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/shaws-political-career-is-unlikely-to-survive-this-scandal/
https://peterallanwilliams.substack.com/p/james-shaw-not-ba
https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/ian-wishart-requests-privacy-waiver-to-investigate-james-shaws-masters-degree/
https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/09/15/james-shaw-the-greens-and-his-msc/
https://ianwishart.com/2023/09/james-shaws-ex-boss-justifiable-public-interest-to-probe-your-msc-degree/

Quote from: Ferg on Oct 02, 2023, 09:51 PMOh dear......poor old James Shaw has been caught in a lie about his (not) qualifications.  Here is all the evidence anyone needs of a complicit media - imagine if this was done by any other politician even slightly to the right of Chairman Mao.  Crickets.

Shaw lied about his BA.  So how did he get the job at PWC?  And how did he get his Masters from Bath if he didn't have his Bachelors degree from Vic?  Come on MSM.....where are you?

Sources:
https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/shaws-political-career-is-unlikely-to-survive-this-scandal/
https://peterallanwilliams.substack.com/p/james-shaw-not-ba
https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/ian-wishart-requests-privacy-waiver-to-investigate-james-shaws-masters-degree/
https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/09/15/james-shaw-the-greens-and-his-msc/
https://ianwishart.com/2023/09/james-shaws-ex-boss-justifiable-public-interest-to-probe-your-msc-degree/

MSM is a bit stuck as James won't give permission to release his personal informaiton to the Bath University. Doesn't mean to say MSM could have done a better job reporting this issue. Their failure to cover it is pretty sad.

What is worse though is that there has been pretty much zero coverage from MSM that the IPCC has down graded its 100 year Climate Change Models. They now (in 2023) say global temperature increases arent going to be as bad as previously modeled. Which essentially ends the fallacy that is the "climate crisis"

And something Shaw has remained silent on. You'd have to wonder why. Just another blot on his integrity and honesty.

Very good article on Labour's fall from grace.  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-ten-reasons-labours-support-has-halved/3I3F36OCRFFB3PPCIKZL2TH6VI/

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 03, 2023, 06:53 AMDoesn't mean to say MSM could have done a better job reporting this issue. Their failure to cover it is pretty sad.

For sure.  It's not as if they don't have the time given they can dredge up tweets from candidates they don't approve of from some years ago, and/or immature behaviours in schools many blue moons ago.  My message to the MSM: "now do the Greens".  I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 03, 2023, 06:53 AMJust another blot on his integrity and honesty.

Another blot?  That assumes he ever had integrity and/or honesty....

Quote from: Basil on Oct 03, 2023, 02:45 PMVery good article on Labour's fall from grace.  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-ten-reasons-labours-support-has-halved/3I3F36OCRFFB3PPCIKZL2TH6VI/

That article is on the money.  If they are spending an extra $46b p.a. I want to know where are the new hospitals, the new motorways, the extra ferry services, the new GP clinics, the new schools, the expanded transport infrastructure such as trains which are climate friendly, new harbour crossings, 1 billion trees, 100k new homes, the new prisons, all children lifted out of poverty, indexed tax brackets ......zip, nada, zilch.  They squandered it.

Worst. Government. Ever.

Even worse than Muldoon - at least we got some infrastructure from him that means we can avoid rolling blackouts.

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 02, 2023, 04:30 PMI wasn't aware Luxon had excluded TOP. At best TOP is only up for a couple of seats. But I think, given the absence of an ACT candidate in Ilam "right" voters will get in behind National. Which will see TOP staying as a minnow outside parliament.

I can't comment on TOP policies as I havent seen them. But I recall Manji was in favour of the Living Wage for council workers and contractors - so on that basis its a "no" from me so can't be bothered in investing the time to learn more about their polices.

Luxon may be smarter than we give credit for. He may be seen as leaving the door open to NZ First. But NZ First may implode and not get 5% so nothing lost. Its still a National /ACT coalition

As far as I am concerned NZ is doomed if we have another Labour / Green / Maori party coalition. I know it is an extraordinarily low bar, but any government that isn't that one will be better. So I am a bit more optimistic.

Manji makes a fair point about National's  "lack of strategic thinking, not just about this election, but future elections". If they don't want a coalition with Peters, then it's actually in their control (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/election-2023-national-urged-to-do-deal-in-ilam-to-get-the-opportunities-party-into-parliament-avoid-needing-winston-peters.htm) to do something about that, as they have previously with both ACT and United Future. 

TOP are bit more than living wage advocates.  Most of their policy balances a Liberal social and economic viewpoint.

Latest poll  (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-1news-verian-poll-to-reveal-if-national-act-need-nz-first-and-if-labour-has-turned-things-around/74UOPZZ6DVB2ZMENCVH2JTY5TU/) puts Nats and ACT needing NZF. 

The 1News Verian poll has National and Labour steady on 36 per cent and 26 per cent respectively. The Greens were  on 13 per cent and Act was down 2 points to 10 per cent.

Te Pāti Māori was steady on 2 per cent and The Opportunities Party is up 1 point to 2 per cent.

National and Act would have 46 and 13 seats respectively, but at a total of 59 that is not enough to form a majority (61). This means they would need NZ First's 8 projected seats...or for TOP to take Ilam and bring in another candidate on the back of that seat.

Quote from: Hectorplains on Oct 04, 2023, 06:45 PMLatest poll  (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-1news-verian-poll-to-reveal-if-national-act-need-nz-first-and-if-labour-has-turned-things-around/74UOPZZ6DVB2ZMENCVH2JTY5TU/) puts Nats and ACT needing NZF. 

The 1News Verian poll has National and Labour steady on 36 per cent and 26 per cent respectively. The Greens were  on 13 per cent and Act was down 2 points to 10 per cent.

Te Pāti Māori was steady on 2 per cent and The Opportunities Party is up 1 point to 2 per cent.

National and Act would have 46 and 13 seats respectively, but at a total of 59 that is not enough to form a majority (61). This means they would need NZ First's 8 projected seats...or for TOP to take Ilam and bring in another candidate on the back of that seat.

If TOP takes Ilam (which they wont) with the new 2% in the polls this would take National / ACT / TOP to 61 seats.

However if TOP reverts to form, wins a seat and only gets 1% of the vote then it comes to 60 seats. Even 1.5% still returns 60 seats

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 04, 2023, 09:37 PMIf TOP takes Ilam (which they wont) with the new 2% in the polls this would take National / ACT / TOP to 61 seats.

However if TOP reverts to form, wins a seat and only gets 1% of the vote then it comes to 60 seats. Even 1.5% still returns 60 seats

Well, they are already at 2% (which would give them at least 2 seats), so what do you worry ;) ? Just support them and we will be fine.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 05, 2023, 12:19 PMWell, they are already at 2% (which would give them at least 2 seats), so what do you worry ;) ? Just support them and we will be fine.

He wants to give me some PAYE tax back. And then take more times that in his Land Tax. No thank you!

I can't believe that once again we have the potential of Winston First calling the shots. Having to possibly wait weeks for his decision. I don't believe for one minute that chippy or someone in labour won't ring Winston Peters to try and do a deal.

On saying that I believe it was Winston that stoped the capital gains tax when he was part of the current lot.

Quote from: Shareguy on Oct 05, 2023, 04:11 PMI can't believe that once again we have the potential of Winston First calling the shots. Having to possibly wait weeks for his decision. I don't believe for one minute that chippy or someone in labour won't ring Winston Peters to try and do a deal.

On saying that I believe it was Winston that stoped the capital gains tax when he was part of the current lo.

Yeah, the thought of it makes my pancreas spasm.  I just don't get where National are at?  It's bad politics!   Their list is released on the 14th, so they have time to bump Hamish Campbell up and get him into parliament. Then it's a nod, a wink and a cup of tea with Manji in Ilam - the same deal they've done previously with United Future and ACT.  TOP may have a loopy tinge to it but so did United,and ACT have their gun nuts.  Manji is imminently more user friendly than Winston.  It also creates another centrist partner going forward, and it's one with significantly different focal points so as not to cannibalise their vote. 

Surely there is more to gain than to lose for the Nats. I can't help think that  more a pragmatic leader, like Key, would jump at it.

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 05, 2023, 12:28 PMHe wants to give me some PAYE tax back. And then take more times that in his Land Tax. No thank you!

As a minor coalition partner their tax plans would be off the table.  TOP would be more likely to score wins in areas like anti-vaping legislation and youth healthcare costs.

Quote from: Minimoke on Oct 05, 2023, 12:28 PMHe wants to give me some PAYE tax back. And then take more times that in his Land Tax. No thank you!

Obviously - I don't know your personal circumstances - did you do run your data through the calculator?

https://taxswitch.nz/

Remember as well, that you need to enter only the value of your unimproved land (e.g. the price for the section without building) - not the capital value of your property.

For most people in town the landtax will be quite neutral, and for anybody on a rural property it will be NIL.

But more importantly - are you sure that personal tax minimisation is the best strategy for voting? I guess in this case, why don't you move into a country without services but as well without taxes (like Somalia)?

Sure - ACT probably will reduce your personal tax burden, but their austerity policies are as well likely to crush our economy (just look at what the tories did to the British economy).

And National - who knows? Their taxcuts are unfunded (i.e. they still need to cut services to pay for them), and apparantly most people won't get them anyway. I am however sure, everybody will be allowed to pay for them.

From a personal perspective - I don't mind paying taxes, as long as I am confident, that the money will be good invested and used in the interest of the tax payers - and yes, the current government had a tendency to waste our taxdollars, didn't they?

Raf Manji does have experience in managing tax- (or rate-) payers money ... and if you compare e.g. Christchurchs finances (which he could influence for a number of years) to e.g. Aucklands (controlled by a hard right mayor), than I would know with whom I would want to go ...

Taxpayers Union/Curia poll today

National increases 0.9 points on last month to 35.9% while Labour are also up, gaining 1.4 points to take them to 27.9%. ACT have dropped by 5.2 points to 9.1% while the Greens are down 2.1 points to 10.6%.

The smaller parties are NZ First on 6.9% (+3 points), the Māori Party on 3.7% (+0.8 points), TOP on 2.9% (+0.2 points), New Conservatives on 0.7% (-0.1 points), Vision NZ on 0.3% (-0.2 points), and DemocracyNZ on 0.3% (+0.3 points).

Here is how these results would translate to seats in Parliament:


National are up one seat on last month to 46 while Labour remain on 35. ACT have dropped 7 seats to 12 while the Greens have dropped 4 to 13. NZ First will hold the balance of power , gaining 9 seats from last month for a total of 9 while the Māori Party are up one to 5 seats.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 06, 2023, 12:33 PMObviously - I don't know your personal circumstances - did you do run your data through the calculator?

https://taxswitch.nz/

Remember as well, that you need to enter only the value of your unimproved land (e.g. the price for the section without building) - not the capital value of your property.

For most people in town the landtax will be quite neutral, and for anybody on a rural property it will be NIL.

But more importantly - are you sure that personal tax minimisation is the best strategy for voting? I guess in this case, why don't you move into a country without services but as well without taxes (like Somalia)?

Sure - ACT probably will reduce your personal tax burden, but their austerity policies are as well likely to crush our economy (just look at what the tories did to the British economy).

And National - who knows? Their taxcuts are unfunded (i.e. they still need to cut services to pay for them), and apparantly most people won't get them anyway. I am however sure, everybody will be allowed to pay for them.

From a personal perspective - I don't mind paying taxes, as long as I am confident, that the money will be good invested and used in the interest of the tax payers - and yes, the current government had a tendency to waste our taxdollars, didn't they?

Raf Manji does have experience in managing tax- (or rate-) payers money ... and if you compare e.g. Christchurchs finances (which he could influence for a number of years) to e.g. Aucklands (controlled by a hard right mayor), than I would know with whom I would want to go ...

I hadnt seen that calculator.
But when I run the numbers through it I will pay $4430 more tax. Given I feel I have a personal responsibility to pay only the tax I am legally required to pay its still a "no" from me.
TOP.png

Quote from: Hectorplains on Sep 28, 2023, 11:11 AMWhat odds on a hung parliament?  ACT has got a wee bit of the wobbles - down to 8.8% on the latest poll.  They do themselves no favours when the push the nice but dim, Karen Chhour into the media.

Even the Nats,  (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-national-warns-very-real-possibility-of-no-deal-with-nz-first-sending-voters-back-to-the-polls/SEDJLYGOEVHV5DABMIJQZV3JQ4/) are now saying it aloud. 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Oct 08, 2023, 12:06 PMEven the Nats,  (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-national-warns-very-real-possibility-of-no-deal-with-nz-first-sending-voters-back-to-the-polls/SEDJLYGOEVHV5DABMIJQZV3JQ4/)are now saying it aloud. 

Winston will do a deal.  Whatever it takes.  Thats pretty much the only thing you can be sure of.  All of this noise is just political posturing pre-election in order to lock down votes.  After the election, it will simply be a bit of horsetrading in a back room. They all want to be in Govt, so they will make it work. 

Quote from: KW on Oct 08, 2023, 01:02 PMWinston will do a deal.  Whatever it takes.  Thats pretty much the only thing you can be sure of.  All of this noise is just political posturing pre-election in order to lock down votes.  After the election, it will simply be a bit of horsetrading in a back room. They all want to be in Govt, so they will make it work.

Sure - but lets face it, while Winston is a good opposition politician, what ever did he achieve in government apart from making himself redundant after splashing plenty of tax payer money under his clientele? Even the dumbest voters are fed up of him after only one term in government, that's when they give him the boot - they always did. Do we need to watch that movie again? Really?

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 08, 2023, 04:32 PMSure - but lets face it, while Winston is a good opposition politician, what ever did he achieve in government apart from making himself redundant after splashing plenty of tax payer money under his clientele? Even the dumbest voters are fed up of him after only one term in government, that's when they give him the boot - they always did. Do we need to watch that movie again? Really?

You could look at it more in terms of not what he did, but what he prevented from being done.  No one can argue that the first Labour Govt with Winston wasnt better than the Second Labour Govt without Winston.  So the way I look at it is, Winston was the adult in the room with Labour.  Things really fell apart when he left.  Arguably National/ACT don't need a babysitter, so he may be redundant.  In which case, give him a nice Cabinet position like Foreign Affairs and let him enjoy the next 3 years before he retires.  He might like being able to travel for a change - last time he was Foreign Affairs Minister he stayed home while Jacinda travelled the world on her self promotion tours. 

Are you sure about that? I am no fan of Winston, but the prospect of a NAT/ACT only government, is downright scary.

Quote from: KW on Oct 08, 2023, 04:57 PMYou could look at it more in terms of not what he did, but what he prevented from being done.  No one can argue that the first Labour Govt with Winston wasnt better than the Second Labour Govt without Winston.  So the way I look at it is, Winston was the adult in the room with Labour.  Things really fell apart when he left.  Arguably National/ACT don't need a babysitter, so he may be redundant.  In which case, give him a nice Cabinet position like Foreign Affairs and let him enjoy the next 3 years before he retires.  He might like being able to travel for a change - last time he was Foreign Affairs Minister he stayed home while Jacinda travelled the world on her self promotion tours.

Not expressing an opinion, but found this interesting though:

Bryce Edwards: Ten reasons Labour's support has halved

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/bryce-edwards-ten-reasons-labours-support-has-halved/

Quote from: KW on Oct 08, 2023, 04:57 PMYou could look at it more in terms of not what he did, but what he prevented from being done.  No one can argue that the first Labour Govt with Winston wasnt better than the Second Labour Govt without Winston.  So the way I look at it is, Winston was the adult in the room with Labour.  Things really fell apart when he left.  Arguably National/ACT don't need a babysitter, so he may be redundant.  In which case, give him a nice Cabinet position like Foreign Affairs and let him enjoy the next 3 years before he retires.  He might like being able to travel for a change - last time he was Foreign Affairs Minister he stayed home while Jacinda travelled the world on her self promotion tours.

Well, its like giving an arsonist credit for afterwards at least trying to keep the fire he started under control, isn't it? There is nobody else but Winston to blame that Labour came in 2017 into power - praising him afterwards for acting as handbrake in this coalition after he initiated it is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

Lets face it - Winston is only in for collecting the prettiest baubles for himself, he never did anything material for the people while he was in government (yes, he had a positive role in the wine box saga, but at that stage he was in opposition). Winston will say anything to get into power - no matter, whether it is race baiting or supporting absolutley braindead conspiracy theories.

Chris Luxon lost in my view the last of any political credibility when he (without need) elevated Winston as a potential coalition partner - and he probably gave him that way the push over the 5%. We will see.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Oct 09, 2023, 10:10 AMWell, its like giving an arsonist credit for afterwards at least trying to keep the fire he started under control, isn't it? There is nobody else but Winston to blame that Labour came in 2017 into power - praising him afterwards for acting as handbrake in this coalition after he initiated it is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

Lets face it - Winston is only in for collecting the prettiest baubles for himself, he never did anything material for the people while he was in government (yes, he had a positive role in the wine box saga, but at that stage he was in opposition). Winston will say anything to get into power - no matter, whether it is race baiting or supporting absolutley braindead conspiracy theories.

Chris Luxon lost in my view the last of any political credibility when he (without need) elevated Winston as a potential coalition partner - and he probably gave him that way the push over the 5%. We will see.

Luxon has a history of being a non-committal, centrist, inoffensive fence sitter. The only reason Winston is getting traction again is because Luxon failed to discount him right from the beginning. That Peters is now polling over 5% is 100% on Luxon shoulders.

WILIE JACKSON  says you all want it... go on admit you want it... and that patchy piece of parchment that was scribbled in the Bombay Office of the British East India company real estate department by  a company sales clerk  has everything in it you need to get what ever YOU WANT!!!!

and the UN will back you ... and it you cant than Ugly Bear will sell you some Tanks and you can take it all back...

since NZ doesnt have any IWI can buy T34's ... there are probably some in towns outside town halls...

LUXON is a wolf in sheep gear...

there is a big cutting machine coming bigger than an under ground tunnel machine that will CUT wellington to ribbons....

it how CEO's work when they need to balance the books and give the shareholders a Special DIV...

CUT CUT CUT CUT ....

"CUT CUT CUT CUT"

Wasn't that what happened last time too circa 2008.

oh 2008,,,, gosh that was a wonderful summer... bursting of a bubble...

wonder what labour was thinking and who was behind the flood...is there pressure on inflation from this lot...

https://www.interest.co.nz/economy/124711/latest-monthly-net-migration-gain-285-compared-pre-covid-levels-statistics-nz-says

So, final leaders debate over and done with. Nothing too spectacular although it was running in the background so I may have missed something. At least they want to ban Greyhound racing.
Latest polls, of anything to go by, indicates whichever major party wins may have to tag along at least 2 more parties. Such fun.
Two million more have as yet to vote.

Did anyone listen to these Dueling  talking heads?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYdpOjletnc

Ok apparently the country has a new name ..

ANATLAND.....

Might still have to add an NZF in that name somewhere....

The voting systems in the central Waikato can only be viewed as a complete shambles...

From a technology perspective it was THIRD WORLD and where did all the money go from the Government to the Voting commission.

This needs an investigation and maybe we need to find a PARTY who will investigate it.

That was a disgrace and almost a case where the GOVT has been negligent...

The voting system in the country can only be described as almost corrupt...

DISGRACE!!!

Quote from: Waltzing on Oct 15, 2023, 08:58 AMThe voting systems in the central Waikato can only be viewed as a complete shambles...

From a technology perspective it was THIRD WORLD and where did all the money go from the Government to the Voting commission.

This needs an investigation and maybe we need to find a PARTY who will investigate it.

That was a disgrace and almost a case where the GOVT has been negligent...

The voting system in the country can only be described as almost corrupt...

DISGRACE!!!

Hmmm, things can be a shambles, without there necessarily being corruption involved.  Take a deep breath and apply Hanlon's razor; "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." 

Given there is no political involvement by any party in the running of the Electoral Commission, it's ridiculous to claim that election booth issues were the fault of the Government. There's enough blame to lay at them in all manner of areas, no need to create another baseless conspiracy.

However; issues at polling stations extended far beyond the Waikato and there does need to be an inquiring.  The queues to vote were stupidly long in many areas.  The number of special votes required to be cast was unacceptable and without adequate explanation.  Both my wife and I had to cast specials even though we'd long been enrolled in the electorate and  she'd even been posted a card (I didn't get one.)  Yet on the day neither of us were on the roll.

Good riddens to the most divisive and incompetent Government in my living memory.

" Both my wife and I had to cast specials even though we'd long been enrolled in the electorate and  she'd even been posted a card (I didn't get one.)  Yet on the day neither of us were on the roll."

shambles  = corrupted system

money went somewhere else other than systems ... that is a FORM of corruption..

Quote from: Waltzing on Oct 15, 2023, 11:21 AM" Both my wife and I had to cast specials even though we'd long been enrolled in the electorate and  she'd even been posted a card (I didn't get one.)  Yet on the day neither of us were on the roll."

shambles  = corrupted system

money went somewhere else other than systems ... that is a FORM of corruption..

No 'shambles' and 'corruption' are not synonymous.

Poor spend of money is usually not corruption either.  In this case, do you have any actual evidence of Electoral Commission money being misappropriated? 

I just don't think we need another conspiracy theory. 

Who is TONI and where does he party ! The world wants to know!!!

https://www.news.com.au/world/pacific/exiting-nz-pm-chris-hipkins-thanks-new-partner-toni-in-concession-speech/news-story/611efe6e03694af1bbcc0185b7bd6688

"Electoral Commission money being misappropriated?"

what is misappropriated ... it could be money spent on people sitting on their buts not doing the jobs...

its a form of corruption where management says lets pay ourself more money for doing nothing..

what century is the GOVT in ... obviously the money did not get to where it should have...

some idiot standing with a cell phone saying your a special VOTE!

how M**** UP does it need to get before people start to realise they are living in a country run by idiots...

If we cant call it corruption of the system what can we call it ...

They paid the money to themselves ... with salary increases and people doing nothing much...

In almost every commission in the country spending money doing nothing much..

MR B is correct ... 

Quote from: Waltzing on Oct 15, 2023, 11:40 AM"Electoral Commission money being misappropriated?"

what is misappropriated ... it could be money spent on people sitting on their buts not doing the jobs...

its a form of corruption where management says lets pay ourself more money for doing nothing..

what century is the GOVT in ... obviously the money did not get to where it should have...

some idiot standing with a cell phone saying your a special VOTE!

how M**** UP does it need to get before people start to realise they are living in a country run by idiots...

If we cant call it corruption of the system what can we call it ...

They paid the money to themselves ... with salary increases and people doing nothing much...

In almost every commission in the country spending money doing nothing much..

MR B is correct ... 

That's a lot of words to say, 'no.'

Quotecorrupted
adjective
1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
2. Dishonest.
3. Containing errors.

Something can be corrupted, as in it contains errors, without the meaning of corruption that involves dishonesty.  I like Hanlon's law where stupidity explains a lot more than corruption.  For a process to be shambolic implies there are errors in the performance of the underlying process, which let's face it, relies on the actions of humans.  So the process can be shambolic and corrupted without being purposely dishonest.

My own anecdote: the scrutineer/volunteer tried to mark off the wrong person on the role.  I could clearly see (upside down) that it was not my name.  They selected the correct index number but on the wrong page, despite reading out the numbers as they went.  Considering this was an early vote, early in the day with no queues or pressure, it really was Hanlon's law in action selecting a vision-impaired individual to do that particular task.

Semantically that is still wrong.  Your third meaning is used in relation to computer databasing or programming.  That is where something is made unreliable by errors.  It's not used for politics.  Corruption in politics is understood to mean to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.

My point remains; that there were issues with enrolment and voting and that an inquiry into these is warranted.  I don't believe any positive purpose is achieve by wild, unsubstantiated allegations. 

Technically not corruption your right but the actions of the commission in not providing a modern system that can be easily verified by the voting public in this day and age is not really acceptable management of tax payer funds.

Suspect the person operating the cell phone to validate the entry in the on line application was not trained to a level of competence where he even had received any training that was audited and reported back to the commission..

There appeared to be no oversight whats so ever....

Was he an imposter a fake representative of the electoral com com... you wont know and how would you go about verifying that the person was authorised and trained to use the application you could not see being operated...

his fingers tapped the screen and as the line backed up he fudged it and before you know your not in the role and your a special vote...

now you need to go and check that your vote was counted and not rejected...

Instead of your tax payer funds going where they were supposed to go they were probably placed in the salary performance KPI of management...

 Get direct updates from Barristers in the central waikato on the consulting they are making to wellington..

They call it the best years of consulting they have ever experienced...

Quote from: Hectorplains on Oct 15, 2023, 12:37 PMYour third meaning is used in relation to computer databasing or programming.

The person who brought up corruption was yourself. The original post by Waltzing referred to a corrupted system.  Systems can be corrupted hence the phraseology is correct.

Waltzing:

QuoteThe voting systems in the central Waikato can only be viewed as a complete shambles...

From a technology perspective it was THIRD WORLD...

[snip]

The voting system in the country can only be described as almost corrupt...

It was yourself that changed the meaning to 'corruption':

QuoteHmmm, things can be a shambles, without there necessarily being corruption involved.

and Waltzing confirmed this in his subsequent post:

Quoteshambles  = corrupted system

If you want to argue the point go for it, but maybe take your own advice and take a deep breath given you will be arguing against yourself.  Given my previous programming interactions with Waltzing I could see what he intended and it was yourself who changed the definition of a corrupted system to corruption involving dishonesty.  He shouldn't have to argue or defend against a position he did not assert based on your misunderstanding.

Should say that after the voting EXPERIENCE yesterday evening and those behind us in the small Q think everyone got an SV listing.....

Joked that oh well we could maybe come back later when the system was fixed.

The operator of the Phone indicated that there were some problems ... honestly the poor man was standing there alone to guard against the forces of the "GHOST in the SHELL"   ...  im sure the poor fellow was as perplexed as the punts lined up to vote ... or out to tick something on the colored piece of parchment ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTPNaUsjksM

If you have ever experienced a HD CPT then you are really lucky ... remember sitting programming on a 286 upgraded to a 386 IBM PC original... and hearing the sound of the Western D CPT crash... its a sound you really dont want to here when you havnt run your backups to TAPE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkqZhA-ef4

Quote from: Ferg on Oct 15, 2023, 03:49 PMThe person who brought up corruption was yourself. The original post by Waltzing referred to a corrupted system.  Systems can be corrupted hence the phraseology is correct.

Waltzing:
It was yourself that changed the meaning to 'corruption':
and Waltzing confirmed this in his subsequent post:
If you want to argue the point go for it, but maybe take your own advice and take a deep breath given you will be arguing against yourself.  Given my previous programming interactions with Waltzing I could see what he intended and it was yourself who changed the definition of a corrupted system to corruption involving dishonesty.  He shouldn't have to argue or defend against a position he did not assert based on your misunderstanding.

In that case, I apologise as I had misconstrued Waltz comment.  I assumed "...the GOVT has been negligent..." was then elaborated on by his following sentence, "The voting system in the country can only be described as almost corrupt." This not being the case, mea culpa. 

just shows how easy it is to post comments  that are not clear.

the smooth functioning of the NZ voting system does not look to have been achieved by the commission.

Just show english is as tough as french ... well not really... Posted on Life Style.. World Sport... Spanish Sail GP...

the DAN's have a great crew doing well...

All good HP and no worries.  So often (online) disagreements arise when people talk at cross purposes.  IMO better to understand than have pointless debates which achieve nothing positive.  But as Waltzing says, maybe we all need to be clearer in our posts.

I think we are all in agreement the processes could have been better and may benefit from a review of sorts.  But I am relying on the anecdotes of others given my own experience was a purely mandraulic mistake.  And I certainly do not suspect any malicious intent.

Thanks also for introducing me to Hanlon's razor....I have said to those espousing conspiracy theories: 'don't ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence' without knowing Hanlon's razor existed in a very similar form: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".  Nice.

Waltzing: you mentioned something about being clear with your posts and then this happened:

Quote from: Waltzing on Oct 15, 2023, 05:54 PMJust show english is as tough as french ... well not really... Posted on Life Style.. World Sport... Spanish Sail GP...

the DAN's have a great crew doing well...

I have no idea what you are referring to here given your love of the cryptic... :D

Edit: now I do: https://stocktalk.co.nz/index.php?topic=253.msg11219

 Did you see the rear guard of that team? 

and they are OFF...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-back-to-the-beehive-covid-19-inquiry-as-nz-first-looks-to-bring-nats-to-table-for-quick-deal/VQFUIXXTAZDK7PB5Q3CFSSRC7M/

Nothing more to see here until the special votes are all counted so lets get back to thinking about which companies will do the best under a National led Govt ?

Its too late its "Cars Cars Cars"

as the ANATLANDERS are going to build more road and over 100,000 peoples from all over the world are now budding ANATLANDERS and will have left their Ladas, Vox Bugs, motor bikes and dog teams behind....

Quote from: Waltzing on Oct 18, 2023, 05:21 PMIts too late its "Cars Cars Cars"

as the ANATLANDERS are going to build more road and over 100,000 peoples from all over the world are now budding ANATLANDERS and will have left their Ladas, Vox Bugs, motor bikes and dog teams behind....

???????

Whats a "ANATLANDERS"

ANATLANDER  ...

those are the local inhabitants of KIWI LAND.

According to some articles yesterday in politics section of the local on line RAGS there could be a NAT government for many elections to come...

KIWI land might enter a period of being NATIONAL LAND....

and kiwis become happy ANATLANDER'S ....

its just a bit of silly ness really...

we are KENNING ABOUT!!!

just kidding really...

after a fabulous long weekend of fine weather its as if the country has said goodbye in the rear vision mirror to the parties of the left and is now motoring on into a hoped for long hot summer...

And now will they CUT CUT CUT ....

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/auditor_general_report_highlights_need_for_tough_action_from_new_government_on_public_service_awfcab15y5bwtzvpcr9sia

Three weeks to count the special votes? What a joke! No fully functioning government for all that time! It really needs sorting out.

Ah - Ah - Ah...

Quote from: kiwi2007 on Oct 31, 2023, 12:08 PMThree weeks to count the special votes? What a joke! No fully functioning government for all that time! It really needs sorting out.

Amazing though how we are able to keep life moving on. A very good clue that a lot of government is unnecessary.

Quote from: kiwi2007 on Oct 31, 2023, 12:08 PMThree weeks to count the special votes? What a joke! No fully functioning government for all that time! It really needs sorting out.

True - but as many other issues with our society (like Health care, education and environment) - they all deteriorated under governments of both couleurs - National working hand in hand with Labour in making things worse.

Won't be different with our election system.

Yes it seems to long in this day and age.

According to news reports there are approx 567,000 specials which includes approx 80,000 overseas votes.

Also they go back and check all the original votes are correct, which I suspect takes the time.

Picture taken earlier today at the office where Special Votes are being counted.

SV's a great way to cover up the melt down on voting night...

sorry cant find you on the smart phone app...

but we paid ourself a bonus for a job well done...

This is the politics of  derailing the wealthy...

if your rich dont bother going to university just get a private tutor.. and continue to party... dont get off the yatch....

dont bother just stay rich its not worth the trouble joining in...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/31/conservative-interns-privilege-test-patchwork-foundation/

Big offensive by the IDF opening up..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWl2BivEwnM

Do we have a New law of the land and it may not be RULE of Law...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/tt_stephen_franks

Government Bloat ...

https://www.buzzsprout.com/944017/13877168-dr-oliver-hartwich-on-how-the-incoming-government-should-reform-the-public-service

The Report to change the direction of a Nation....

Right full of learned intellectuals that say ... your nation has been stolen by the university master class of the last 30 years and ... how to take it back...

https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/reports/prescription-for-prosperity-2023-briefing-to-the-incoming-government/

well there is one way and that is privatise the lot and LIST IT on the NZX.... before NZ has to adopt the AUS dollar....

 

Do the Courts in NZ need guidance regarding constitutional matters and would ACT's position on the treaty be the start of Government taking back these issues and creating certainty over the countries future...

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501894/maori-will-go-to-war-over-act-s-treaty-referendum-labour-mps-warn

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 10, 2023, 08:07 AMDo the Courts in NZ need guidance regarding constitutional matters and would ACT's position on the treaty be the start of Government taking back these issues and creating certainty over the countries future...

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501894/maori-will-go-to-war-over-act-s-treaty-referendum-labour-mps-warn

I guess it is important to separate ones views about how the treaty should be interpreted (or "fixed") in ones opinion from the basic legal principles of the meaning of a contract and who afterwards can change it.

I suspect most of the posters here are in agreement related to "co-governance" and anti racism (i.e. no person should be preferred or discriminated against based on their race). But this is not what the treaty is about.

The treaty is a contract between two parties. One party being some selected leaders of the people who happened to live in New Zealand before 1840 and the other party being the British Queen, assuming responsibility for all people moving at that time from Europe. Her legal deeds belong to the crown, and for NZ our govenment took over the rights and committments coming out of this contract.

No legislation of the world would allow one side of a contract unilaterally changing this contract, and exactly this would happen if we allow a referendum to interpret the treaty.

"Pacta sunt servanda" is one of the most fundamental rules for any legal system. Without this you don't have a functioning legal system. I.e. whatever stands in the treaty, we either need to stick with it, or we need to change it in agrement between both treaty partners. We can't just tell the other side that we changed our mind and from now on do things differently.

So - what exactly do you think our courts need guidance on, and who do you think should provide this guidance?

"The treaty is a contract between two parties"

well said "PARTIES...."  , Partners? really think DUCKS on this one...

was thinking that if NZ was to move towards a model of government like Southern Ireland the position of ACT might be mute and the old piece of paper which really is a poor version of a treaty or really at best a pre amble to something a bit more complete....

It looks like it was scribbled together in the Bombay Office of Biritsh East India Real estate office by a sales clerk...

International Treaty? Gosh looks a bit like a fourth form history class project...

NZ History ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTFEZiKItLs

The Barristers are starting to feel the supreme Court does in deed need guidance becuase of a lack of a complete constitution..

Moving to a model of government like southern ireland would complete and you the public would get to vote on it..

Bye bye treaty by dinner time is what MP Davis is concerned about and one can see how this might happen.

If there is an issue with an interpretation of a contract, surely that should be addressed.  I also fail to see anywhere that says any partnership (assuming the 'partnership' interpretation is correct) must be 50/50.  Try that in a business with 3 partners or in a business with a senior partner...

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 12, 2023, 09:34 AMIf there is an issue with an interpretation of a contract, surely that should be addressed.  I also fail to see anywhere that says any partnership (assuming the 'partnership' interpretation is correct) must be 50/50.  Try that in a business with 3 partners or in a business with a senior partner...

You are correct - The Courts have not commented on the relative status of the parties to the Treaty partnership, other than noting that this partnership does not necessarily describe a relationship where the partners are equal.

The Court of Appeal has discussed partnership at length, including the rights and obligations flowing from it, but no exhaustive definition of this principle has been attempted.

In the Forests case (1989), the Court of Appeal commented that;  Partnership certainly does not mean that every asset or resource in which Mäori have some justifiable claim to share must be divided equally. There may be national assets or resources as regards which, even if Mäori have some fair claim, other initiatives have still the greater contribution.

If you're keen,  page seven onwards... (https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/WT-Principles-of-the-Treaty-of-Waitangi-as-expressed-by-the-Courts-and-the-Waitangi-Tribunal.pdf)

If the argument is centred, for example, on Three Waters it should be noted that partnership was not sited as the predominate principle of obligation.  There are three principles; those are of partnership, participation and protection.  Three Waters proposed that Iwi/Māori would have a greater role in the new Three Waters system, including pathways for enhanced participation by whānau and hapū as these services relate to their Treaty rights and interests. 

The Treaty has been thrashed out in our Courts for decades and from that interpretations of the Treaty have been introduced in to law.  The two versions of Te Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi and significant issues around translation means that there are major differences in the meanings between the two versions.
The Courts have address this by referring to the aforementioned, 'principles' of the Treaty.  These are the core concepts that underpin both texts.

ACT's plan would re-define every existing reference to those principles with their own suggested meanings.  That's one helluva rocking of the legal boat.  Practically that means all legislation which refer to the principles would need to be re-written.  That's only going to benefit lawyers and consultants...that sound is of their sweaty hands rubbing together in glee.   So it is possible but it comes at a significant cost,  and that's just one objection to what they're pushing for, there are much deeper ones concerning the whole sanctity of our legal system...but that extends too far for me on a Sunday morning.

Finally, though, using a public referendum as the vehicle to achieve this...will give voice to all kinds of divisiveness and extremism.  It's bad politics, baby.

Its all "DUCKS"

he was having dinner and asked his wife what was for dinner? Pheasant  Darling?

No Duck dear...

Oh he said looking at the patchy peice of  parchment... must be some ducks in here somewhere,,,

we need to get them Quacking along together down there...

Cooking the goose ... or in this case, DUCK...

waddles like a Duck.... ect ...  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Y1kf9rFJ7mA

if it looks like a DUCK...

Look says IWI its a DUCK!!!!!

"That's one helluva rocking of the legal boat. "

yes but who says it wasnt a "DUCK" in the first place and there is now questions in the legal houses over the supreme courts wisdom and decisions becuase there is no constitution covering many issues.

Now you might say there is Constitution in law and thats is why you get to study and pass those papers in your LLB or your other business studies and in fact as far back as the 1970's those papers were introduced even at business school.

ACT is merely setting the stage for a change of constitution to a repulbic re southern ireland...

Get over it people... the status Que may not last for ever and many of these discussions will have to move on...

The 3 waters fiasco is exactly the reason why we need to have these conversations around how the treaty is interpreted and applied.  We need to codify how it will work without being subject to debatable interpretations by whoever happens to be in power on the day.  Especially given the spurious interpretation mana whenua are to have half of the ownership/governance roles based on a 50/50 partnership.

Yep ... but apparebntly it will be CIVIL War or at least some flag pools being cut down at the very least...

Cant see Sir Winston or Seymour joining in and Whinny wants the M Seats to go....

Do you think all the new immigrants want to learn TM... no and they wont vote for 50/50....

Documents can now be put through ReGen AI and no longer need to be produced in English and TM. Northland council has already caused uproar saying it will produce multiple document in various languages.

Flag poles...  are there any left with NZ flags on them after the labour government took down all the flags?

Did not Willie burn all the NZ flags?

Bet they did not order any new ones!!

After they stole all the pipes they were going to replace the FLAGS!!!

That was the big one they did not want you to know... The Pipes were just the START!!!

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 12, 2023, 03:42 PMAfter they stole all the pipes they were going to replace the FLAGS!!!

That was the big one they did not want you to know... The Pipes were just the START!!!

Interesting.  Tell me more.  Are you saying it was water, then the flag....and then more?  Have you got a reliable source for that?

At demonstration today or yesterday there were flags seen flying from the PLA offshoot of the Ao tera rower - Tribal Peoples Authority.

There was also seen flags from native tribal activist groups.  https://www.tribalnationsmaps.com/store/c42/Tribal_Flags.html

sorry wrong flags ..

https://natlib.govt.nz/blog/posts/the-flags-that-make-us 

who are they natives of .. Ao tera rower

Firstly how they got here;They rowed here... the whole sailing thing is not correct as the prevailing westerly would have blown them to south america unless then tacked heavily and for that you need to be able to navigate... of course they might have got a helping heading if they ran into a strong easterly but in april you can get a lot storms coming down from the pacific blowing towards the south west...

They got lucky and rowed!!! Not sure why they dont have an eight at the olympics.. anyway back to the coming Civil war.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/301007246/in-pictures-call-for-ceasefire-in-gaza-sees-thousands-take-to-auckland-streets

It all started with this suggested Tweet which set the flags flying ...

and apparently Terror is not Terror ... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/israel-hamas-war-questions-over-why-ex-foriegn-minister-nanaia-mahutas-office-disagreed-with-advice-about-hamas-terror-tweet/SQSCITQYHNCQLH7LXCNNKOCKQM/

The ground swell  organisation that plans to steel the flags is lead by none other than ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Sos3s-gHs

and then they will stir up civil unrest by playing Tams lastest movie up and down the country in every country hall they can book..

Its all a bit circumstantial but you just need to join the dots!! Follow the flags...

Whinny is in charge ....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301007952/live-luxon-and-seymour-uturn-back-to-auckland-to-meet-peters

This Nat/ACT/NZF coalition, is going to be an absolute nightmare.

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 14, 2023, 08:08 PMWhinny is in charge ....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301007952/live-luxon-and-seymour-uturn-back-to-auckland-to-meet-peters

Whinny is the side show for sure...

and hes the most experianced of the 3 at chaos...

But the other 3 are just as bad so it business as normal.

One would have thought there would be suitable meeting rooms available at local government department branches, which could have been used for these coalition talks, rather than spending (I assume) tax payer money on hotels.

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 16, 2023, 11:33 AMOne would have thought there would be suitable meeting rooms available at local government department branches, which could have been used for these coalition talks, rather than spending (I assume) tax payer money on hotels.

Well, at this stage Winnie is playing the tune and the other two have to dance to the music. What a spectacle. But I guess all three seem to prefer a nice hotel in Auckland to the beehive in Wellington.

Maybe the long talks are because they just can't agree on into whose Auckland electorate to move the new government?

Maybe, but in the meantime, most government department offices in Auckland will have meeting rooms, video conferencing facilities etc. If the three of them had used their brains and accepted that this three way coalition was the highly likely outcome, they could have acted like adults and got their heads together before the election, instead of making themselves look like a bunch of idiots with their "we will never sit at the table with [fill in the blank]" posturing.

They need to get it sorted. Christmas is around the corner and Kiwis deserve and need a heads up, if there are to be any policy actions or major changes, planned before the end of the year. 

Quote from: BlackPeter on Nov 16, 2023, 01:13 PMWell, at this stage Winnie is playing the tune and the other two have to dance to the music. What a spectacle. But I guess all three seem to prefer a nice hotel in Auckland to the beehive in Wellington.

Maybe the long talks are because they just can't agree on into whose Auckland electorate to move the new government?

Five weeks without a government !!
And no one, with the exception of the media, really noticed. ;D

Quote from: kiwi2007 on Nov 16, 2023, 10:44 PMFive weeks without a government !!

And most of that delay was due to the Electoral Commission so I'm not sure why some have their panties in a bunch given coalition negotiations would be significantly more difficult than counting votes.

Hey Spain just decided on their PM when the election was back in July, so 2 weeks not so bad!

Quote from: Jay on Nov 17, 2023, 07:37 AMHey Spain just decided on their PM when the election was back in July, so 2 weeks not so bad!

God forbid that we do go the way of Spain and their ongoing political instability.  Since the economic crisis (2015) they have enjoyed multiple general elections, glacial processes around government formation, and a procession of weak governments. The Spanish party system has become highly polarized, with the rise of new parties on the extreme left and the extreme right. 

I'm still relaxed about this.  Good things take time.  The wily old dog will be a good counterbalance for the inexperienced newcomers.  Everyone needs checks and balances including Christopher Luxon.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/incoming-governing-parties-going-line-by-line-over-policy-as-finish-line-approaches/ONNV5I5EIFDHRGV7EXUSHUDB4E/

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 16, 2023, 10:57 PMAnd most of that delay was due to the Electoral Commission so I'm not sure why some have their panties in a bunch given coalition negotiations would be significantly more difficult than counting votes.

Wrong.

The problem was not the electoral commission, it just did as it was told by the government of the 2017 NZ First - Labour government. Never forget that it was Winston Peters who supported that voters can still enrol on election day. The result is obviously a significant delay of the final count, given that every enrolment needs to be verified before the vote can be counted.

Don't blame the bureaucrats. The culprit is the populist who is currently playing with the greenhorn who seems to be alone in his believe that he is a great negotiator.

What a circus ...

If it takes 3 weeks to verify an ID and count a vote then the process is broken at the Electoral Commission.  It is disingenuous saying negotiations have taken 5 weeks given the parties to the negotiation and their proportion of votes were not known for the first 3 weeks due to.....wait for it.....Electoral Commission processes.  It's not the only Government Department with broken processes under what was NZ's worst ever Government.

It really doesn't matter who, or what is to blame.  The point I made earlier still stands. Anyone with even half a brain knew the  likely outcome of the election was going to be a Nat/ACT/NZF coalition. All three parties could have made the process a heck of a lot smoother (and potentially quicker) had they had the balls and common sense to put aside the posturing, and do the preliminary work on coalition talks. There is absolutely no reason why they could not have done that. Obviously, the process could not have been fully completed until after final results were in, but the groundwork could have been done, and a draft plan formulated, ahead of time, the finer details of which could then have been worked on now. The whole thing feels like a PR stunt.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 04:58 PMIf it takes 3 weeks to verify an ID and count a vote then the process is broken at the Electoral Commission.  It is disingenuous saying negotiations have taken 5 weeks given the parties to the negotiation and their proportion of votes were not known for the first 3 weeks due to.....wait for it.....Electoral Commission processes.  It's not the only Government Department with broken processes under what was NZ's worst ever Government.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 04:58 PMIf it takes 3 weeks to verify an ID and count a vote then the process is broken at the Electoral Commission.  It is disingenuous saying negotiations have taken 5 weeks given the parties to the negotiation and their proportion of votes were not known for the first 3 weeks due to.....wait for it.....Electoral Commission processes.  It's not the only Government Department with broken processes under what was NZ's worst ever Government.

Nobody said it takes 3 weeks to verify one voter. However - if not one voter but 20% of the voters choose to enrol on election day, than yes, it takes a bit longer.

Look - I understand that certain people love to bash innocent bystanders instead of looking for the real problem. That is what populists do, and so much easier to bash your favorite victims instead of analysing the problem, isn't it?. However - it would be nice if we could keep the discussion here on a somewhat more elevated level.

The problem was a decison of the NZ First /Labour government from 2017. Feel free to beat the culprits up (Winston deserves whatever bashing he can get) ... but leave the poor electoral commission out of the play. They said from the beginning that this decision will create problems.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/winston-peters-blames-delayed-negotiations-on-decision-supported-by-winston-peters/T2J6B2EUKJETNJEXXIDGAZXK5Q/

While I don't always agree with David Seymour, I must say - his statement that Winston is the most untrustworthy NZ politician sounds about right to me. The good thing about this however is - he will bring the next government down, as he did with all the governments he was involved in before with the exception of the 2017 NZ First Labour government. In that he brought NZ First so fast down, that he didn't had the time to take Labour with him ...

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501639/act-s-david-seymour-reverses-rule-out-of-working-with-winston-peters-in-cabinet#:~:text=He%20did%20not%20regret%20his,%22the%20most%20untrustworthy%20politician%22.&text=%22No%20I%20don't%2C,the%20will%20of%20the%20voters.

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 18, 2023, 05:14 PMIt really doesn't matter who, or what is to blame.

The argumentative oracle of negative reps does not have a grasp of basic facts, including NZ Stats arrival & departure information being reliable, so maybe you should direct this comment at him/her given he/she is blaming Winston for the Electoral Commission processes.

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 18, 2023, 05:14 PMThe point I made earlier still stands. Anyone with even half a brain knew the  likely outcome of the election was going to be a Nat/ACT/NZF coalition. All three parties could have made the process a heck of a lot smoother (and potentially quicker) had they had the balls and common sense to put aside the posturing, and do the preliminary work on coalition talks. There is absolutely no reason why they could not have done that. Obviously, the process could not have been fully completed until after final results were in, but the groundwork could have been done, and a draft plan formulated, ahead of time, the finer details of which could then have been worked on now.

It is better to have potential problematic parties in the tent instead of outside, so yeah they coulda, shoulda woulda started negotiations earlier with NZF inside the tent, much like John Key worked with The Maori Party in 2008.  But what's with the rush?  I would rather they got it right to ensure a stable Government than some half assed job that will not stand the test of time.  And whilst negotiations could have started earlier, it could have been a complete WOFTAM so I see no harm in waiting to work with what is known, rather than a hypothetical.  I see no harm done...

In any case, given this earlier comment:

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 14, 2023, 08:20 PMThis Nat/ACT/NZF coalition, is going to be an absolute nightmare.

...I am surprised you want the negotiations over quickly, and I'm assuming successfully, for what you view as a nightmare coalition....wouldn't you rather negotiations failed?  Genuinely curious....

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 18, 2023, 05:14 PMThe whole thing feels like a PR stunt.

I'm sure some would never let such an opportunity for the limelight go to waste!  :)

Quote from: BlackPeter on Nov 18, 2023, 05:45 PMThe good thing about this however is - he will bring the next government down, as he did with all the governments he was involved in before with the exception of the 2017 NZ First Labour government.

Did you just make a prediction?   ;)

Why on earth would I want the negotiations to fail?

Here's a thought though. What would a "successful" coalition agreement even look like? I suspect your idea of successful might be quite different to mine.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 05:49 PM.....In any case, given this earlier comment:...I am surprised you want the negotiations over quickly, and I'm assuming successfully, for what you view as a nightmare coalition....wouldn't you rather negotiations failed?  Genuinely curious....

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 18, 2023, 07:04 PMWhy on earth would I want the negotiations to fail?

Here's a thought though. What would a "successful" coalition agreement even look like? I suspect your idea of successful might be quite different to mine.

I think we will find out fairly soon what the coalition agreement is, getting one will be a success, but whether the government is a success will take a lot longer. The really big rock facing any incoming government this time is reversing the things they don't like, let alone implementing the things they want to happen.

I agree. Anything promised prior to the election, by any of them, is meaningless now. They can only fulfil their respective promises with the support of the other two parties. I did not vote for any of them, but I do hope National does not end up being the party that concedes/sacrifices the most. I will be extremely disappointed if Seymour or Peters get the Deputy PM role, but no doubt I will be in the minority with that view.

Quote from: Buzz on Nov 18, 2023, 07:28 PM.... The really big rock facing any incoming government this time is reversing the things they don't like, let alone implementing the things they want to happen.

You stated earlier you thought this coalition would be a nightmare....and my (erroneous) conclusion was you wanted them to fail.  My bad and I apologise for assuming based on your earlier post that you would rather see the back of this coalition than not.

To me success is not necessarily measured by the agreement itself (more on that later*) - rather success to me would see the coalition survive full term and then be wholly or partly returned in the next election.  For that to happen, there will have been a number of desirable policies enacted and the majority of the electorate would have to be in some sort of agreement.  Failure would see the coalition collapse or not be returned to power in the next election.

*Regarding the agreement itself, I don't see it as being a success or otherwise depending on which pre-election policies are adopted or not.  I suspect there are very few real differences between the starting positions of all 3 parties such that I am likely to be ok with whatever is negotiated given my gut feel is the policies I like will probably be adopted (e.g. simple shit like inflation indexed tax brackets etc., nothing too radical).  I am assuming 20% of issues will cause 80% of the problems and, assuming the 3 parties involved behave like adults with the country's interest in mind, I'm hoping that 20% of disagreeable stuff is sufficiently fringe to not be a significant issue for the (majority of the) electorate.

What does a successful coalition (agreement) look like to you?

Quote from: Buzz on Nov 18, 2023, 07:28 PMThe really big rock facing any incoming government this time is reversing the things they don't like, let alone implementing the things they want to happen.

I expect that won't be for a lack of will power, rather it will be a lack of funds.......I suspect the financial state of NZ Inc is far worse than we have been told.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 07:47 PMI expect that won't be for a lack of will power, rather it will be a lack of funds.......I suspect the financial state of NZ Inc is far worse than we have been told.

That's true for sure, though reversing policies stops the spend on them, which hopefully means more money available to implement the things that the new government wants to do.

There's no doubt money will be tight, labour have also left a few poison pills/dead rats that the new government will have to deal with.

Yes, you misinterpreted my comment (thanks for the apology). I have no desire to see this coalition government fail. The people voted and that is how democracy works. Whether we voted for them or not, or whether we even like them, is irrelevant. We are "stuck" with them for better or worse, so of course I am hoping for the former.

When I expressed my belief that the coalition will be a "nightmare" it is because I honestly don't feel confident about any of the three parties OR about how they will operate as a coalition government. Seymour and Peters will be thorns in Luxon's side, and while they will no doubt eventually come to an "amicable" agreement to govern the country, they won't make it easy for National along the way. I really hope Luxon is up to it.

You are more than likely right that "20% of the issues will cause 80% of the problems" but I think that is actually a concern. Those fringe issues need to be put to bed, so they can focus on the important stuff to get NZ back on track. There are a couple of things I personally would like to see "disappear" from both ACT and NZF's policies/promises (I  am not going to speak to them though as I know nobody here will agree) - I would be hoping they do not find their way into the final agreement.

Time will tell - let's just hope it's not too much more time. But I do think Luxon/National has the most to lose, if they get this wrong.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 07:40 PMYou stated earlier you thought this coalition would be a nightmare....and my (erroneous) conclusion was you wanted them to fail.  My bad and I apologise for assuming based on your earlier post that you would rather see the back of this coalition than not.

To me success is not necessarily measured by the agreement itself (more on that later*) - rather success to me would see the coalition survive full term and then be wholly or partly returned in the next election.  For that to happen, there will have been a number of desirable policies enacted and the majority of the electorate would have to be in some sort of agreement.  Failure would see the coalition collapse or not be returned to power in the next election.

*Regarding the agreement itself, I don't see it as being a success or otherwise depending on which pre-election policies are adopted or not.  I suspect there are very few real differences between the starting positions of all 3 parties such that I am likely to be ok with whatever is negotiated given my gut feel is the policies I like will probably be adopted (e.g. simple shit like inflation indexed tax brackets etc., nothing too radical).  I am assuming 20% of issues will cause 80% of the problems and, assuming the 3 parties involved behave like adults with the country's interest in mind, I'm hoping that 20% of disagreeable stuff is sufficiently fringe to not be a significant issue for the (majority of the) electorate.

What does a successful coalition (agreement) look like to you?

Thanks for that.  Zero debate from me given I agree except for 2 points:

1.  1st sentence 2nd paragraph - I don't have the same concern but that's your opinion which is fine.  If your concerns come to pass then good on you for seeing and saying it.  I am genuinely ambivalent about this coalition although I do want to see it succeed for the same reason as you: to get this country back on track.

2.  3rd paragraph "I am not going to speak to them though as I know nobody here will agree".  You may be surprised.  If you want to air your concerns and are happy to defend your position then go for it.  Free speech and all that.  I expect other posters will be respectful of differing opinions and I think some will agree with you.  Most people are reasonable - not all those who voted for Act are gun nuts and not all those who voted green are watermelons.  This is not ShareTrader so those sorts of posts and people can stay there.  I post here for a reason...long may that continue.

You are right. This is not ST. So here you go ...

1) ACT's call for a referendum on the Treaty of Waitangi is something I absolutely do not support. For two reasons. Firstly, a contract is a contract. Once signed it is an official agreement between parties, and in most cases cannot (and should not) be altered unless all parties concerned unanimously agree to changes. Whether we agree with/support the Treaty or not, is irrelevant. It is not my place as a New Zealander or as a voter, to interfere with someone else's contract. Secondly, any continued debate about this will create significant division, which is the last thing we need. We have more than enough racial tension in this country right now, and we need to do better.

Re their stance on gun laws - nope.

2) I do not support NZF's anti-transgender policies. No explanation needed as I am pretty sure I have covered my reasons in previous posts.

I am speaking for myself obviously, but if National concedes to any or all of these "demands" I will be seriously pissed.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 10:36 PM2.  3rd paragraph "I am not going to speak to them though as I know nobody here will agree".  You may be surprised.  If you want to air your concerns and are happy to defend your position then go for it.  Free speech and all that.  I expect other posters will be respectful of differing opinions and I think some will agree with you.  Most people are reasonable - not all those who voted for Act are gun nuts and not all those who voted green are watermelons.  This is not ShareTrader so those sorts of posts and people can stay there.  I post here for a reason...long may that continue.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 18, 2023, 05:52 PMDid you just make a prediction?   ;)

Just an observation - observing patterns can be a useful learning experience, if this is what you are after.
 
Winston clearly has a problem to survive longer than one term in government (well, he never made it) - and in two out of the three cases in the past he took the main party down with him into the abyss.

Any pact with Winston certainly does have Faustian overtones.

This response from Luxon today, does not fill me with confidence.

When asked if there was going to be a referendum on the Treaty, Luxon said :"we've all, everyone has to make trade offs along the way, because that's the nature of MMP that is the nature of coalition government".

As expected, Seymour thinks he should have the Deputy PM role. I am no fan of National, but Nicola Willis has earned that role in my opinion. Luxon better show some loyalty here. Last thing I want is Seymour or Peters in the deputy's chair.

Quote from: Untamed on Nov 21, 2023, 12:46 PMAs expected, Seymour thinks he should have the Deputy PM role. I am no fan of National, but Nicola Wills has earned that role in my opinion. Luxon better show some loyalty here. Last thing I want is Seymour or Peters in the deputy's chair.

Agree - would be pretty funny if Seymour or Peters would be deputy and would need to speak in Luxons absence for a National coalition government including as well the other minor party. Neither Seymour would want Peters (remember most distrusted NZ politician) to speak as well for ACT nor Peters would want Seymour to speak as well for NZ First.

So, I could imagine at least this cup might pass :) ;

Anyway - we clearly live in interesting times :) ;

"My work here is done."

Mmmmm ...... ???

Nicola has just stated she will not be Deputy PM. She is doing her best to be diplomatic, but she has also not said she didn't want the role or "pulled out" of the running.

Luxon has done precisely what I was afraid he would do. Bad move buddy. Really bad move. He has zero balls, and this decision alone will come back and bite him in the bum.

Beyond depressing.

And no, it's NOT merely a ceremonial role! If something happens that puts Luxon out of action, the Deputy PM takes over. That was more than likely Luxon's pathetic attempt at appeasing the people, knowing many would be unhappy once they found out he had sacrificed Nicola.

What total BS. There is literally no good or legitimate reason to split this role, other than to appease the two people concerned. This is government, not primary school.

QuoteSeymour and Peters to share deputy PM
NZ First leader Winston Peters and ACT leader David Seymour will share the role of deputy prime minister, halving it across the three-year term. Peters will be the first deputy prime minister, and will then hand over to Seymour for the second half of the term.

 We might have escaped a referendum, for now, but this is really dangerous territory in my humble opinion.

QuoteNational promises to remove references to Treaty Principles from legislation
Te Tiriti o Waitangi has been a point of ongoing campaigning from the National, NZ First and ACT parties.

While National has not agreed to a Treaty referendum, it has agreed to substantial changes to Te Tiriti and its role in law.

In the coalition agreement with NZ First, the coalition has agreed to review all legislation - apart from treaty settlement acts - to remove references to "the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi" from law.

The coalition agreement said it would replace such references "with specific words relating to the relevance and application of the Treaty, or repeal the references".

In the ACT and National party agreement, the coalition agreed to support ACT's Treaty Principles Bill through the first of three readings in Parliament. That would mean a select committee would be asked to take submissions about the bill, which aims to redefine the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. ACT had campaigned on holding a Treaty referendum. National has not committed to supporting that referendum, only starting the process which could see such a referendum be held.

Judith Collins for Attorney General - well that sucks too.

whats wrong with Judith... shes lovely!!!

the last minister of justic rammed her UTE into a parked car and ran off into the bushes...

they had to get the dogs out ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkuu0Lwb5EM

come on and winston really socked it to them this morning....

you can imagine the press following WIN overseas and they are covering Winston in the Artic....

now where is Winston... anyone seen Winston?  ...what? we are covering Winston on global climate action right and hes  meeting Greta here to look at the state of Penguins....

What? Winston is attending the next AUKUS meeting and NZ is buying a share in a nuclear submarine....

What? fighters are back? Holland is shipping its old F16's to NZ after Ukraine gets F35's in 2030....

"official agreement between parties,"

well are the parties still the same parties and clearly they may not be represented today as they once were...

Certain principals may endure just as Magna Carta endures to day..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Now one wonders which of the two documents is actually of a higher quality..

dont normally what NZ TV news ... but tonight the LSW show will surely but the best comedy on TV...

Winston is just to funny to miss...

Interesting stuff from the journos in wellington..

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/newsable/

No laughs after all.... well thats TVNZ...

might as well privatise it to pay for the tax cuts...

Remember the last lot ... transparent government she said...

this guys must have hidden plans... they are going to sell the family silver to pay for the tax cuts...

there goes the behives dinner silver wear...

Interesting speeches from Luxon, Seymour & Peters.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/election-2023-christopher-luxon-announces-ministers-winston-peters-and-david-seymour-to-job-share-deputy-prime-minister.html

I am feeling very positive for NZ tonight. Finding it very hard to fault anything at all about today's agreement. Now all they need to do is deliver.

"Interesting speeches from Luxon, Seymour & Peters."

I suppose unhinged could be considered "interesting."  Peters' angry old man routine has become his default.  His raging against the media is pointless posturing. 

Quote from: Minimoke on Nov 24, 2023, 11:54 PMI am feeling very positive for NZ tonight. Finding it very hard to fault anything at all about today's agreement. Now all they need to do is deliver.

Yep after a very tough last few yrs on the personal front I'm feeling very content with the new coalition Govt. Labour under Ardern did massive damage to the country and the Greens are basically a bunch of Woke nutcases these days (Jeanette and Rod would be rolling in their graves) TPM also a bunch of radicals not fit to have any influence on everyday kiwis. Thank goodness for a halt to the Apartheid regime along with all the other Woke nonsense that was in play, things were looking pretty grim. As a social conservative its a great result IMO.

Fran O'Sullivan  (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fran-osullivan-radical-or-conservative-new-coalition-is-both-at-the-same-time/V3SEUOZCKRB4JLYVPXHLW2OYZE/)has come out as a full card carrying fangirl of the new coalition. 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Nov 25, 2023, 08:47 AMI suppose unhinged could be considered "interesting."  Peters' angry old man routine has become his default.  His raging against the media is pointless posturing.

To me it seemed like Seymour was the statesman, Luxon was the MC and Peters was the stroppy teenager.

In defence of Peters in that interview, the media could not get the phraseology right.  It must be very frustrating to constantly come across that and IMO good on him for putting them in their place.  Is it incompetence or purposeful on the part of the media?  I say both and they likely want to get a reaction because that makes great TV right?  They should have made him Minister of Broadcasting.

Quote from: Hectorplains on Nov 25, 2023, 12:53 PMfull card carrying fan

Do you also use this description for media who support the other side?  If not, it doesn't really belong here...assuming we want meaningful discussions.

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 25, 2023, 02:15 PMDo you also use this description for media who support the other side?  If not, it doesn't really belong here...assuming we want meaningful discussions.

Have you read this article?  Fran Sullivan has been a very good journalist, for a long time.  Her right wing leaning has been tempered by the honesty and intelligence shown in her writing . She will criticise anything and anyone that she thinks warrants it.  I have enjoyed reading her work, even when I don't agree with her.  Today's effort though was sycophantic and utterly unbalanced, more what you'd expect of Mike Hoskings. 
I would use a similar expression for John Campbell - on "the other side." 

Ok they are going to sell the silver service at the beehive!!!!

Do they even need a chamber to shout int... just ZOOM it all...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mark-lister-is-it-time-for-more-asset-sales/T4ENJU5W6FDHXMSQ6XN3O3BMB4/

are they going to float anything? and if so does anyone know what that might be that is PROFITABLE to put on the NZX?

 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Nov 25, 2023, 02:33 PMHave you read her article?

I don't pay money to read any media.  I'm not sure I would read the article if it were free given I hold the NZ media in low regard and I place little to no value on their opinions.

Did you use the same description for the media who, amongst many other things, breathlessly reported the arrival of New Zealand's "first baby"?  (which was a very weird title to bestow on young Neve).  I'm curious to know if "full card carrying fan" only applies to journalists with right political leanings...or if it applies to both sides?  If we end up with some sort of balance in the political leanings of the media, is that such a bad thing?

Feel free to give me the gist of the article if you want to prove your point.  But right now all I am seeing is an attempted ad hominem argument without addressing any of the substance of the article, of which I am blissfully unaware and am happy to remain as such if you can't be arsed...  :)

Quote from: Ferg on Nov 25, 2023, 02:57 PMI don't pay money to read any media.  I'm not sure I would read the article if it were free given I hold the NZ media in low regard and I place little to no value on their opinions.

Did you use the same description for the media who, amongst many other things, breathlessly reported the arrival of New Zealand's "first baby"?  (which was a very weird title to bestow on young Neve).  I'm curious to know if "full card carrying fan" only applies to journalists with right political leanings...or if it applies to both sides?  If we end up with some sort of balance in the political leanings of the media, is that such a bad thing?

Feel free to give me the gist of the article if you want to prove your point.  But right now all I am seeing is an attempted ad hominem argument without addressing any of the substance of the article, of which I am blissfully unaware and am happy to remain as such if you can't be arsed...  :)

If you'd read all my edited reply you'd see that I state that I'd give the same title to Campbell (https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/25/john-campbell-i-hoped-to-be-surprised-actually-im-amazed/?fbclid=IwAR1fggRPL5gh3HBW1y0LvpDYvLtSot-1Jx4i01UCrW1FoKwxnrHhzgt2iD8) who is an apostle of the left. 

However; the news of the day isn't Labour / the left.  C'mon, the birth of Neve was five or so years ago!  Here's O'Sullivan's opening sentence; "The vast ideological cloud that has permeated New Zealand politics and shrouded free speech for far too long has finally been punctured."  It only get's more rabidly reverential as it goes on... 

Quote from: Hectorplains on Nov 25, 2023, 03:16 PMIf you'd read all my edited reply you'd see that I state that I'd give the same title to Campbell who is an apostle of the left. 

However; the news of the day isn't Labour / the left.  C'mon, the birth of Neve was five or so years ago!  Here's O'Sullivan's opening sentence; "The vast ideological cloud that has permeated New Zealand politics and shrouded free speech for far too long has finally been punctured."  It only get's more rabidly reverential as it goes on...

Great to hear that about Campbell.  BTW I didn't see your edited reply until now given I got distracted while posting and my reply quoted the entire post that existed at the time I started typing.

On reading the first sentence you quoted I thought "that's great!".  Finally we are no longer under the ideological cloud of a bunch of inept politicians with zero business experience.  So far so good! :)

According to the TE PA PA PAPA party this government is going to be a one term only ...

dont know, seymour the BAD M MAN came across all business and could be the bueacrates worst nightmare...
 
maybe ACT will get more votes the longer it keeps the Collection of diversity together and maybe LUX ON knows how to get people of varied personalities to work together...

maybe the next government will be a NATACT one...

will the young people of the country rebel and protest in the streets or will summer be here and they HIT the beach and forget all everything except fun and sun...

Tova pod casts

she highlights that 3oo workers at Ministry of  busy idiots complained about having to us english as there main language..

well does she not realise these people the first 300 to seek voluntary dumpings....

brilliant way to down size the government.... piss off all the workers and THEY LEAVE!!!!

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 25, 2023, 07:51 PMTova pod casts

she highlights that 3oo workers at Ministry of  busy idiots complained about having to us english as there main language..

well does she not realise these people the first 300 to seek voluntary dumpings....

brilliant way to down size the government.... piss off all the workers and THEY LEAVE!!!!

Those workers may not realise the Labour government passed a thing called the Plain Language Act. This Act clearly describes how govt, and its workers, should communictate to the public.

If these workers don't understand this then they can be the first on the firing line. Because they probably also don't understand the empowering legislations that creates their own govt department.

Could it be that winston is right... and there needs to be an inquiry into the public funding of broadcasting over the last 3 years.

Several entities promoting demcracy tried in that time to publish adversting only to find that STUFF and NZ HERALD blocked attempts to publish information in News papers.

Could it be that the public funding of these news papers allowed them to pick and choice what adversting they decided to run...

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 28, 2023, 06:40 PMCould it be that winston is right... and there needs to be an inquiry into the public funding of broadcasting over the last 3 years.

Several entities promoting demcracy tried in that time to publish adversting only to find that STUFF and NZ HERALD blocked attempts to publish information in News papers.

Could it be that the public funding of these news papers allowed them to pick and choice what adversting they decided to run...

Winston is right (and I'm no fan)

Bribe = "A bribe is a sum of money or something valuable that one person offers or gives to another in order to persuade him or her to do something."

Something valuable: Media are going broke. They need cash. PIJF was cash that helped them survive.
Used to persuade. Govt wanted media to "Actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging Māori as a Te Tiriti partner. And Reflect the cultural diversity of New Zealand."

In essence the govt was buying "news" that aligned with their agenda.

And this was bolstered by the "Advertising Packages" which included "Spend $X on advertising and we will place your narrative into news items" Essentially dressing advertorials up as current affairs.

MIM says it as it is and it appears the press in NZ dont want to see the reality of how an economy works but still want their cake and eat it...

MIM details the process and the effect and is educationa.l Winstons government ministers and friends should read MIM's statements.

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 29, 2023, 09:16 AMMIM says it as it is and it appears the press in NZ dont want to see the reality of how an economy works but still want their cake and eat it...

MIM details the process and the effect and is educationa.l Winstons government ministers and friends should read MIM's statements.

Who is MIM?

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 29, 2023, 09:16 AMMIM says it as it is and it appears the press in NZ dont want to see the reality of how an economy works but still want their cake and eat it...

MIM details the process and the effect and is educationa.l Winstons government ministers and friends should read MIM's statements.

Attacking and bashing the free press is one of the basic tools of every populist. Trump did it, every autocrat in history did it and Winston is doing it as well.

What he wants is a streamlined press singing in tune from his songbook, and everybody critisicing him gets attacked.

If the press did anything wrong, he should go to the police and make just another unproven accusation adding to the many other outrageous but empty complaints he made over the years. Anybody critisicing Peters get's attacked. Trumpesk.

I guess its just easier for somebody who never did anything useful worthwhile mentioning in office to attack the press instead of starting to do the job he is paid for to do.

While I do like Winston's ability to be direct, this is not a good look for him right now, and even worse look for Luxon as the leader of this coalition. As you said, if Winston has legitimate evidence of any wrong-doing, he should present it to the appropriate channels for investigation. Otherwise, he runs the very real risk of losing all credibility. He needs to get off his high horse, at least for now, and focus on doing his job.

Luxon has zero control over his Deputy PM already. Which is absolutely no surprise. If he can't find a way to "manage" Winston, this absolutely will be the "coalition from Hell."

We don't have time for these histrionics.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Nov 29, 2023, 11:42 AMAttacking and bashing the free press is one of the basic tools of every populist. Trump did it, every autocrat in history did it and Winston is doing it as well.

What he wants is a streamlined press singing in tune from his songbook, and everybody critisicing him gets attacked.

If the press did anything wrong, he should go to the police and make just another unproven accusation adding to the many other outrageous but empty complaints he made over the years. Anybody critisicing Peters get's attacked. Trumpesk.

I guess its just easier for somebody who never did anything useful worthwhile mentioning in office to attack the press instead of starting to do the job he is paid for to do.

I agree with Winnie, over the last 6 yrs the Herald and Stuff have basically been left wing songsheets.

Quote from: Breezy on Nov 29, 2023, 12:33 PMI agree with Winnie, over the last 6 yrs the Herald and Stuff have basically been left wing songsheets.

I remember a lot of articles written by former ACT and National politicians in the Herald over the last 6 years or so. Richard Prebble is often writing for them, Gerry Brownlee did write for them and so does Matthew Hooton. This the left wing songsheets you are talking about?

Quote from: BlackPeter on Nov 29, 2023, 12:54 PMI remember a lot of articles written by former ACT and National politicians in the Herald over the last 6 years or so. Richard Prebble is often writing for them, Gerry Brownlee did write for them and so does Matthew Hooton. This the left wing songsheets you are talking about?

I'm afraid overall all I remember is the misinformation and overall left wing bias on a daily basis that was plastered relentlessly in stated publications, even pulled them up myself on a few occasions on Covid matters.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Nov 29, 2023, 12:54 PMI remember a lot of articles written by former ACT and National politicians in the Herald over the last 6 years or so. Richard Prebble is often writing for them, Gerry Brownlee did write for them and so does Matthew Hooton. This the left wing songsheets you are talking about?

They do that. Its a bit of a smoke screen to try and give the impression they are impartional. But in reality they aren't.

Quote from: Minimoke on Nov 29, 2023, 12:59 PMThey do that. Its a bit of a smoke screen to try and give the impression they are impartional. But in reality they aren't.

Yep 1 of those articles per 100 of the other propaganda ones.

Plus those authors are political figures of a known persuasion or leaning; they are not supposedly independent reporters or journalists.  Winston is right.  Of course the media who received the PIJ funding will fight this tooth and nail, and use every dirty trick in the book to undermine him.  But Winston is correct and he is not the only one saying it.  As much as I don't like Winston, someone needs to call out the dishonest media.  Independent fourth estate....have a Tui.

Boy this thread just took off today!!!

"Who is MIM?"

Most Important Member...

"Winston has legitimate evidence "

Might be more a case of a political bribery which you can smell but cant actually find the smoking gun .....

He certainly is shooting from the HIP....

Luxon wont be able to control Winston.... no one can...

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 29, 2023, 03:13 PMBoy this thread just took off today!!!

"Who is MIM?"

Most Important Member...

I'm still none the wiser.

Anyhow moving on.

If something was of genuine public interest the public would want to read it. If lots of people want to read it advertisers would go "gee that's a good place to be advertising". If media had lots of advertisers wanting their space for advertising there would be lots more revenue from those advertisers. And if there was lots more revenue then there would be no need for the PIJF.

So, the logical conclusion is the government wanted to spread messages that were not in fact in the public interest. And to get those messages out they had to pay for it. And given the message were so unpalatable, advertisers wouldn't come to the party  the govt had to "bribe" the media to report those messages.

MIM stands for the profile name that has lots of M's and I's in it...

i think thats .. someone ..

"Minimoke"


 

" the govt had to "bribe" the media "

classic!

 and yes it seems to mean the public just doesnt want to read about CO Whatever and Woke messages of some new fad...

Summers coming and dont forget to stay hydrated!!!!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/wellington/301017682/wellington-mayor-tory-whanau-admits-alcohol-problem-i-am-a-flawed-person

well at least she did not crash her UTE into a car and run off into the bushes!!!

Looks like LUX ON thinks the fund was not a great idea...  it looks like the MEDIA loved it!!!

well who wouldnt like a program where you get free money with no strings attached and no monitoring beyond the  standards compaints drop box....

does the press not see it went beyond the normal model of business support from government being tax credits to being a welfare program.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301017039/live-christopher-luxon-unveils-100dayplan-urgent-changes-coming-before-christmas

The PM, "the view about the public interest Fund is a view that's held by many New Zealanders, who say that it was not a good program or a good idea."

Looks like the Media has been living in the Jacinda day dream world and is now so far down the rabbit hole " we arnt in Kansas anymore."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLNS3HWfCM
 

 

Well, heres a real test for our media and how good they are at investigative and honest reporting.

In one media today, a Wellington City councillor has said, that the mayor, in a full (but appears unreported) media release said words to the effect of "I was not involved in any sexual conduct"

On the flip side there are unsubstantiated / unverified reports of a video circulating widely that the Mayor (in her private capacity) has indeed been filmed in a sexual act while intoxicated at a public bar.

So the test is: what is the truth?

Once the truth is known it is then for Wellingtonians to start forming their own views of the suitability of their Mayor. And whether liquor licensing laws are being upheld

MSM are sulking and attacking the new Govt because they think the people have elected the wrong Govt and their former gravy train has been cut off. Their woke and biased reporting over the last 6 yrs is now ineffectual.

is this one of those "i did not DO ANYTHING" moments... insert your favourite version. "I did not have xxx with that women" moment...

Sean Plunket understands the bribery issue and how the media are gaslighting those who see it that way:

Taken the axe to a few posts here, please keep it civil. Sometimes it is better to leave something unanswered than to slog it out on an internet forum  ;D

Quote from: Administrator on Nov 30, 2023, 08:49 PMTaken the axe to a few posts here, please keep it civil. Sometimes it is better to leave something unanswered than to slog it out on an internet forum  ;D

Or take it over to X , basically anything goes over there and you can let it all hang out if you wish. ;D

Its interesting to see the view point of IWI leaders... that they are still working from the old Tribal Leader play book and havnt moved on in their base MODUS OPERANDI...

Modern (greek over 2000 years old) versus the Traditional ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/133361166/hap-breaks-silence-on-david-seymour-dont-ever-claim-that-you-are-ngti-rhia-if-you-want-to-tut-with-the-treaty

This speaks for itself and shows where democracy stands inside IWI..

"Epiha said Seymour's response was narcissistic and ignorant.

"Traditionally, one or two people would speak for the iwi. For Ngāti Rēhia, those are members of te taumata [the leaders' post].

"After weighing up the opinions of every whānau, te taumata makes the final decision, and it only needs to be said once."

Come on NZ ... its time to stop paying taxes and fire bomb the tax department.....

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayers_union_offers_to_design_government_department_logos_for_free

really what ever happen to NZ political satire.. on well we can always watch reruns of get smart on JONES...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p4bLO6OPkI

Sir Ian Taylor has suddenly found socialism....

"I did not help any journos take that Bribe!"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/301019123/sir-ian-taylor-the-unintended-consequences-of-the-new-government

"i had nothing to do with any slush funds"!!

WOW WOW WOW is this really the state of things...   fire alert the building is on FIRE!

did no one in treasury know how to do double entry book keeping and multi demensional accounting.... wonder what the state of local council financial are also with Drunk Mayors .....

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_20231202

They brought the country to a halt with some colorful dress ups ... well done democracy...   its a win for colorful clothes and face paint!!!! These are some of the best ruby face paint days you will get so dont waste them!!!

Everyone in this country has the right to peaceful protest. Be a half decent human being for once in your life, and just respect that right, without the continual anti-Maori commentary.

Some of us came over here to get away from the intolerance and nastiness at the "other place" - please do not ruin this place too.

Quote from: Waltzing on Dec 05, 2023, 07:44 AMThey brought the country to a halt with some colorful dress ups ... well done democracy...   its a win for colorful clothes and face paint!!!! These are some of the best ruby face paint days you will get so dont waste them!!!

"Everyone in this country has the right to peaceful protest"

absolutely.....

but does that mean blocking people right to go to work? Think its about time marching up motorways was outlawed.

Actually telling the truth on both sides is important and respecting statue law such as the 1990 bill of rights, based on the 1689 bill of rights created after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Remonstrance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689#:~:text=The%20Bill%20of%20Rights%201689,statute%20in%20English%20constitutional%20law.

1990 bill of rights..

https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM224792.html

Story telling probably one of the most practised traditions in these islands.... unfortunately story telling often lends itself to facts being retold ..

A colorful day in the house ....

has anyone done a pole on young people and Co G as Wille seems to think that many agree...

They may might but do they understand it? Does anyone know what its is and the Co Partnership that the courts have yet to agree one...

Like something can mean its a Constitutional DUCK...

and think that perhaps the Legal beagle who said LIKE needs to go a bit farther and suggest he did not want to explain....

Fact people just the Fact and the head legal beagle of the Macro Prudential board once said to me....

Need to get my FACTS sorted out She said....

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-party-to-swear-allegiance-to-treaty-of-waitangi-during-parliament-swearing-in-amid-national-day-of-protest-action/EFB65PH4BFDYVNVIBYLBPOLNBE/
 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/te-reo-maori-govt-seeks-to-halt-extra-pay-for-public-servants-fluent-in-the-language/4Y4WR6LC4FBDVII6Z3XNKDQES4/

Hmmmm.  Surely they can find a way to stop this nonsense. 

Quote from: Basil on Dec 06, 2023, 07:27 AMhttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/te-reo-maori-govt-seeks-to-halt-extra-pay-for-public-servants-fluent-in-the-language/4Y4WR6LC4FBDVII6Z3XNKDQES4/

Hmmmm.  Surely they can find a way to stop this nonsense. 

Thats Willis's Mini Budget sorted. Govt Depts clearly have excess cash slopping around to pay for non productive labour. So won't be hard to bring out the carving knife to cut off lots of the excess fat.

Check out 7PM sharp network news program tonight... some kind of gardening, town and country show....

you would hardly think the country was in a revolutionary uproar....

or is it....

and here we are ... politics...Lord Hannon Life Peer...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/news

And have the liberal left (being a history student one has to say one is guilty) but has this lead to the situation in eastern europe. Of course it has as the liberal left believes no one would go to war in this enlightened times... Is liberal though simple wooly thinking...

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/opinions/israel-palestine-antisemitism-american-universities-zakaria/index.html

wooly stuff...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyEuBpkSY7c

Lessons yet to be learned by the left  in NZ..

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/10/california-bankrupt-debt-budget-finances-woke/

This man reminds one of NIGEL from the UK...

smooth looking operator and was he a saleman in his past life? or did he miss his calling...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/port-waikato-by-election-andrew-bayly-wins-seat-as-electoral-commission-returns-official-results/FP2WPQCGCZHDFIRY5SPVNMKLOY/

If there are new ferries will people just line up at the dock? bring your umbrella?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/government-declines-to-fund-cook-strait-mega-ferry-cost-blowout/S6IKNKO6KJCI3HOWDRPTQB6WOU/

wonder how many other projects out there under the last government were as well costed as this one....

World politics ... a better subject topic.

'Six more years of this"

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-putin-presidential-election-rigged-opposition-authoritarianism/32732600.html

Back to NZ politics - another backward step from our new government.
This government is so damned short sighted.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/504884/minister-pulls-brakes-on-cycling-and-walking-initatives

Quote from: Untamed on Dec 16, 2023, 04:41 PMBack to NZ politics - another backward step from our new government.
This government is so damned short sighted.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/504884/minister-pulls-brakes-on-cycling-and-walking-initatives

Yes, but ...

While I agree its a shame to pull money from initiatives to improve the conditions for cyclists and pedestrians ... I must admit, that I don't really feel that the previous government spent this money very well. As an example: A lot of Christchurch streets feel after millions of dollars invested into shudderbars, road lbockages and so called cycleways (lines and plastic artifacts installed on the road making nobody safer) significantly less safe than they have been - for cyclists, for pedestrians and for cars.

I can see why they want to review this spending, but I hope they won't just turn back to spending every dollar just for cars.

Yes, I do agree with you that the previous government did not manage this well, but this doesn't sound like a "review" to me. Sounds more like a very clear statement that funding to improve conditions/safety, for pedestrians and cyclists is not, and never will be, a priority.

I also have a problem with suddenly ceasing funding for projects that are already underway or under contract. That includes the Picton ferry situation. There are costs involved with halting projects, both financial and social.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Dec 18, 2023, 09:21 AMYes, but ...

While I agree its a shame to pull money from initiatives to improve the conditions for cyclists and pedestrians ... I must admit, that I don't really feel that the previous government spent this money very well. As an example: A lot of Christchurch streets feel after millions of dollars invested into shudderbars, road lbockages and so called cycleways (lines and plastic artifacts installed on the road making nobody safer) significantly less safe than they have been - for cyclists, for pedestrians and for cars.

I can see why they want to review this spending, but I hope they won't just turn back to spending every dollar just for cars.

Quote from: Untamed on Dec 18, 2023, 09:59 AMYes, I do agree with you that the previous government did not manage this well, but this doesn't sound like a "review" to me. Sounds more like a very clear statement that funding to improve conditions/safety, for pedestrians and cyclists is not, and never will be, a priority.

I also have a problem with suddenly ceasing funding for projects that are already underway or under contract. That includes the Picton ferry situation. There are costs involved with halting projects, both financial and social.

I see where you are coming from. Labour made a lot of the right noices, but don't check, what they really did.

If you look at the Picton ferry project you mentioned - It sounds like the previous government did run this project (and many others - e.g. Lake Onslow) without checking or worrying what the real cost will be, and without considering the risks.

Buying a ferry without considering the cost to the harbour infrastructure is like buying a Russian locomotive and not worrying that you have to change the spur width on all of our railway tracks. Can't be that expensive, can it?

Buying a giant hybrid ferry without considering and funding the necessary changes in the infrastructure is economically stupid and highly irresponsible.

But even without the cost blowout don't I think that the two monster hybid ferries would have been a good solution for New Zealand. Remember - this is NZ's transport backbone, and all we would have had is 2 (TWO) vessels needing special infrastructure to dock. Allow for one of them to break down or sink (this is what ships do) - and we would have been screwed. Allow one earth quake in Wellington (or Picton) and damage to the harbour (these things happen, its the shaky islands after all) - and all the ferries could provide is sightseeing trips from and to the other harbour. Mindboggling stupid for an essential transport link.

What we need are lots of simple, cheap and reliable ferries which are able to dock in many of our harbours. In this case we even would have an alternative if the next cyclone takes again some of our roads out, as they do. Diversity is not just for investors a good idea - and much better than the ideological blindness our previous government demonstrated.

We need to make NZ more resistent, not less resistent by relying on only two ferries (with new, unproven technology) and very special port equipment. Sorry, but I just realise this was just another mindboggling stupid decision the last government has made. Was this ideology over common sense? While they did a lot of soft talking, the only thing they seem to have left are mounting debts, unworkable plans and budget blow outs.

Again - I do understand and share you concerns about this government just bringing us back into the past (and the pendulumswinging too far right, further destroying our environment, but so far I think many of their decisions are understandable and sensible. We can't just keep going the path of least resistence and piling up debts but adding little benefit to the country ... and yes, cutting projects does hurt.

However - if you cut them in a postion of economic strength its still better than waiting until the rest of the world looses their faith in us, stops funding our debts and than we would need to cut projects from a position of economic weakness.

Agreed, but I would feel a lot happier if the government had come out and said something like:

"We are not willing to fund the project in its current form, as we don't believe this is the best way to do it. So for now, all funding is on hold while we re-look at the situation, and formulate a better option to achieve what we need to."

I would have no issue with this approach, but it seems that they have zero interest in considering the possibility of modifying current projects. They are purely focussed on pulling funding from wherever they can, whilst taking zero responsibility for being part of the solution (ferries, cycle ways and whatever else).

I get that they need to tighten the reins, but none of what I am seeing right now, gives me any confidence whatsoever that this government will address the major issues we are currently facing, especially in health. Anything requiring additional funding won't stand a chance. There is no way they will address the aged care crisis for example, but that is a discussion for another day.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Dec 18, 2023, 11:24 AMAgain - I do understand and share you concerns about this government just bringing us back into the past (and the pendulumswinging too far right, further destroying our environment, but so far I think many of their decisions are understandable and sensible. We can't just keep going the path of least resistence and piling up debts but adding little benefit to the country ... and yes, cutting projects does hurt.

Quote from: Untamed on Dec 18, 2023, 12:02 PMAgreed, but I would feel a lot happier if the government had come out and said something like:

"We are not willing to fund the project in its current form, as we don't believe this is the best way to do it. So for now, all funding is on hold while we re-look at the situation, and formulate a better option to achieve what we need to."

I would have no issue with this approach, but it seems that they have zero interest in considering the possibility of modifying current projects. They are purely focussed on pulling funding from wherever they can, whilst taking zero responsibility for being part of the solution (ferries, cycle ways and whatever else).

I get that they need to tighten the reins, but none of what I am seeing right now, gives me any confidence whatsoever that this government will address the major issues we are currently facing, especially in health. Anything requiring additional funding won't stand a chance. There is no way they will address the aged care crisis for example, but that is a discussion for another day.

Fair enough. I guess we used to have a government which promised much and delivered little ... and now we have a government which started with cutting costs.

And to be honest, I would trust neither Labour nor National in the current situation to improve our health system and aged care system - the only difference is that Labour throws lots of money at problems without solving them, while National throws less money around but solves the problems neither.

Maybe they can find a better way to spend the money Labour invested in creating a second race based health authority, but otherwise things might look dire.

I don't know, this is all not very uplifting, but I am sure the coming years we all will need to do some belt tightening. Our education system is broken with outcomes getting worse every time they check them, our infrastructure is crumbling (and its not just potholes and bursting pipes)- its unfortunately not just our health system which needs a lot of focus and funds.

Might be worthwhile to discuss this in a speparate thread ... apart from left and right ideologies, maybe somebody has an idea how we can improve the outcome of our health system and still spending less money on it? Prevention is often much cheaper than just throwing more and more money at the victims of the health crisis. Teach people about the benefits of community sport, support (and fund) it better. Teach people how to feed themselves healthier and at a reasonable price. Organise (and fund) self-help groups for elderlies and mental health cases, ...

Maybe we need a discussion whether it is really the best solution for our society if everybody just looking after their personal career and welfare and the state looking after everything else? Parents both going to work and nobody able to look after the children and / or (shudder) elderlies? Many things used to be done in family groups and the state needed to help only in exceptional circumstances. These days we expect the state to organise and pay for everything, but the Left likes to spend the money but does not know how to fix the problems, and the Right does not like to solve the problems ..

So much we could do to improve things and save money, but yes - I have not seen any of the big parties pushing for this.

The CAMPAIGN to hold government to account.... for good or bad.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/231221_christmas_newsletter

and they did get some runs on the board.

The minister for Infernal Affairs sure hate them after she got a legal challenge.

Is Mid Summer nights dream out of  fashion and Killing Cook is in vogue... This will get a 60 grand gift from creative NZ. Gosh what it takes to be noticed in a Tik Tok World...

Speaking of getting rid of people .. ect. In defenders of NZ there is an entire chapter on Clergy who after delivering sermons of NO Fishing on a sunday suddenly found themselves the FISH!!!  Page 450 or somewhere around there...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/national/565544/Maori-cannibalism-widespread-but-ignored-academic-says

Stop judging others on what their ancestors may or may not have done historically. If I delved far enough back into your family history, I'm betting I'd find plenty of "skeletons in the closet." Should I judge you on those findings?

Just give it a rest, or take it to the "other place."
 

Quote from: Waltzing on Dec 24, 2023, 09:39 AMhttps://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/national/565544/Maori-cannibalism-widespread-but-ignored-academic-says

An ode to Parliament!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paula-bennetts-christmas-eve-poem-an-ode-to-parliament/CTOV7DCS5RGLVHPDJZAE5J6NJE/

" family history"

yes since we have a family history of military service in crown services for hundreds of years there are plenty of medals in many Military campaign including NZ in the mid 1800's from the Irish side right up to the Balkans in the last NATO outings on the English Polish side.

many here will have family members and histories over the last 500 years in military service...

And many books on the shelves here for early NZ history as well not just Europe.
 
Other service medals for modernising the English Civil service in the  late 1700's and its legal systems....

Lots of skeletons in the cupboards!!!!

Including dispatches from the land wars of NZ where members of the Irish side of the family fought up the east coast.





 

New Poll out for NZ....

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-soars-in-new-poll-as-voters-agree-country-is-on-track-chris-hipkins-crashes-record-low/TNS4GGJHIFDTZNGMKPQLNJOGJA/

Treaty Principles Bill: Open debate should be nothing to fear - Fran O'Sullivan

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/treaty-principles-open-debate-should-be-nothing-to-fear-fran-osullivan/ORZDMIGVK5GITG4NA5XSUBXRYE/

Quote from: Waltzing on Jan 27, 2024, 10:14 PMTreaty Principles Bill: Open debate should be nothing to fear - Fran O'Sullivan

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/treaty-principles-open-debate-should-be-nothing-to-fear-fran-osullivan/ORZDMIGVK5GITG4NA5XSUBXRYE/

I am wondering whether the issue with ACT's proposed bill is just the name? The proposed principles I have seen (suggesting that the government has the right to govern all citizens and claiming equal rights for everybody, independent of race) clearly belong into the constitution of any decent country. Hard to see anything wrong with that and difficult to understand the outcry ....

However - it is not clear to me what this breath of common sense and decency have to do with the Treaty of Waitangi. The Treaty of Waitangi was signed between an empire which only had grown on the blood and bones of its slaves (slavery was only abolished in the UK and the so called "Commonwealth" in 1834) and a bunch of warlords who only few years before used to settle their internal scores by killing and eating each other. The last cannibalistic feast in NZ was in Akaroa in 1839.

Clearly - both parties to the Treaty would belong according to todays standards in front of the international court and behind bars and had hardly anything decent in mind when they signed the contract. No point to try to retrospectively introduce modern ideas of democracy, freedom and decency into this document.

Maybe ACT should just suggest a modern human and democratic constitution for NZ without trying to piggyback their propsosal on a document which was never meant to be a constitution.

I am all for a democratic constitution guaranteeing human rights, freedom of speech, equality and protection of minority rights for New Zealand. Lets go for it ... and leave the Treaty of Waitangi where it belongs in history.

This might be the cause of some unease in IWI circles. Some sitting MP's in the labour party dont want to move away from the relationships with the monarchy as they see it as a treaty between Crown and Tribes..

The Monarch seen as a still vital party of the local government sticking to its agreements signed back when...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/elizabeth-rata-tribalism-democracy-incompatible/TBJE44I26HYNCV3O6VYFZ4UBC4/

The local Iwi dont like the idea that a republic would allow the locals to vote on stuff...

Local Iwi seen split on those that want to keep the status Q and those that dont...

Now dont forget that the empire was also built on some Maths, the best navigation systems and inventions like the stream train and the some very good math models....

Those maths models really helped do everything from doing good to doing evil as you outline above.

The greeks really made it all happen and of course this was a real break through in technology. If it wasnt lost at the bottom of the sea and Romans got there act together they might have taken over Australia ! well maybe not india maybe but the supply lines might have got a bit long .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism#:~:text=The%20Antikythera%20mechanism%20(%2F%CB%8C%C3%A6,and%20eclipses%20decades%20in%20advance.
 

Quote from: Waltzing on Jan 28, 2024, 04:50 PMThis might be the cause of some unease in IWI circles. Some sitting MP's in the labour party dont want to move away from the relationships with the monarchy as they see it as a treaty between Crown and Tribes..

The Monarch seen as a still vital party of the local government sticking to its agreements signed back when...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/elizabeth-rata-tribalism-democracy-incompatible/TBJE44I26HYNCV3O6VYFZ4UBC4/

The local Iwi dont like the idea that a republic would allow the locals to vote on stuff...

Local Iwi seen split on those that want to keep the status Q and those that dont...

Now dont forget that the empire was also built on some Maths, the best navigation systems and inventions like the stream train and the some very good math models....

Those maths models really helped do everything from doing good to doing evil as you outline above.

The greeks really made it all happen and of course this was a real break through in technology. If it wasnt lost at the bottom of the sea and Romans got there act together they might have taken over Australia ! well maybe not india maybe but the supply lines might have got a bit long .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism#:~:text=The%20Antikythera%20mechanism%20(%2F%CB%8C%C3%A6,and%20eclipses%20decades%20in%20advance.
 

Difficult subject ... and obviously everybody has a different context, making communication difficult.

What I wanted to say is - in my view ACT should leave the Treaty (of Waitangi) alone. The Treaty is a historic document, and nobody can change it but the people who signed it - and they are all dead by now. Obviously - the crown as well as the people (no matter what genetic origin) still need to follow the contract, but I don't see any point in implying principles of the treaty which are not defined in the document.

Does not mean that ACT's proposed principles are wrong, they are just not principles of the Treaty.

What New Zeland needs is a constitution, and this is not the Treaty. The Treaty might be at best one of the underlying documents for an still unwritten constitution. The Magna Carta and international humanitarian laws would be other underlying principles.

So - I think it would add a lot of value to propose a decent constitution for New Zealand enshrining a commitment to human rights, freedom and equality for all residents of this country, no matter which race, religion, gender they belong to. That's what ACT should do, they would get my vote on that.

I found it interesting that the Maori King said there were no treaty principles.

Gosh ....

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/poll-shows-act-leader-david-seymour-and-party-gaining-support-after-waitangi-events/3FQWSZB3TBFCJDDRF26VTWVFIU/

I take these polls with a grain of salt. I think they are generally meaningless, given the small number of people polled. Would be interested to know what their criteria is for participation. Nobody has ever asked me for my opinion  ;)

Quote from: Waltzing on Feb 10, 2024, 08:43 PMhttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/poll-shows-act-leader-david-seymour-and-party-gaining-support-after-waitangi-events/3FQWSZB3TBFCJDDRF26VTWVFIU/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

Interesting. But the sample sizes of all of those polls were well under 2000 people polled. That is a minuscule sample of the general population. The current poll was a sample of just 1000. I don't see how you can come to any legitimate conclusion about anything, based on 1000 people.

In general conversation with family and friends/aquaintances, so far this year, the people I am hearing from are not overly impressed with anything the government has actioned so far. I, for one, was very surprised to hear Luxon rule out a capital gains tax. That was something I fully expected this coalition government to do.

Time will tell. It is early days. But so far I have nothing to give me any confidence about anything to be honest.

Quote from: Waltzing on Feb 11, 2024, 12:08 PMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

https://www.phdstatistics.com/sample-size-determination.php


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-can-political-polls-be-trusted/PZNGV3LZKRCY5J72NAUBRVOWZE/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/495051/how-to-read-the-political-polls-10-things-you-need-to-know-ahead-of-the-nz-election


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483237/this-election-year-voters-should-beware-of-reading-too-much-into-political-polls


https://www.qualtrics.com/au/experience-management/research/determine-sample-size/

Quote from: Untamed on Feb 11, 2024, 01:46 PMInteresting. But the sample sizes of all of those polls were well under 2000 people polled. That is a minuscule sample of the general population. The current poll was a sample of just 1000. I don't see how you can come to any legitimate conclusion about anything, based on 1000 people.

In general conversation with family and friends/aquaintances, so far this year, the people I am hearing from are not overly impressed with anything the government has actioned so far. I, for one, was very surprised to hear Luxon rule out a capital gains tax. That was something I fully expected this coalition government to do.

Time will tell. It is early days. But so far I have nothing to give me any confidence about anything to be honest.

1000 people polled is pretty much standard practice in N.Z. and usually has a margin of error of a few percent.  It's about getting a poll result with a reasonable margin of error at a reasonable price.  Obviously, it costs a lot more to conduct a poll of 10,000 people than it does 1,000 but the margin of error isn't meaningfully smaller.

At the end of the day people's perceptions of how a Govt is doing this early into their term is driven primarily by their political leanings before the election.  It's really only after a Govt's term of power you can get a real feel for whether their time in power has been beneficial to the country or not.
I believe the Labour led Govt of the last 6 years has left the country in terrible shape economically and their ideology has created a society that's never been more divided.  Without any question in my mind, it was the worst Govt of my lifetime.  Their time was huge on greenie and left leaning ideology and really small in delivering outcomes despite the vast amount of money wasted.

Fact is that political leanings are primarily driven by selfish motivating factors, human nature being what it is.  People who have little want others to pay a wealth tax or a capital gains tax or both, the more the better as long as their benefits can be increased.  Those who have plenty are sick of all the welfare beneficiaries and wingers who contribute nothing, asking for more.  Plenty of people in the middle.    The debate never ends and is tiresome because human nature never changes which is why I don't get involved much in political debates.

I get this, but we can't continue to only look at what the current government is doing now, in the light of that sentiment. Sure, they may well be "better than Labour" but is that enough? Is that not setting the bar pretty damned low in terms of our expectations of what this government does or achieves over the next three years? I need them to prove now, that they have what it takes to turn things around, and make life better for all of us, not just their "squeezed middle." The reality is, all they needed to win the election, was to present as better than Labour. But post election - we need way more than that in my opinion.

P.S. Basil, please don't turn into Balance. "People who have little" do not always have little because they are lazy or bludgers. There are many reasons. The people you are alluding to are NOT the majority.

Quote from: Basil on Feb 11, 2024, 02:48 PMWithout any question in my mind it was the worst Govt of my lifetime.

QuoteI need them to prove now, that they have what it takes to turn things around, and make life better for all of us,

Why do you need something right now you're unlikely to get straight away ?  The economy is like a ship with small rudders, its takes a lot of time to turn things around and some damage can't be fixed.  For example, we seem destined to forever be dependent on imported refined fuel because N.Z. refining has said it would take billions to reinstate the refinery at Marsden point and all the staff they had to run it have moved on.  Speaking to people in the industry, the bitumen we are now getting from Asia is far below the quality that came out of Masden point.  Our roads are a complete mess and the bitumen coming in to fix them is very low grade and probably always will be.  Just one of the messes left by the previous Govt that can't be fixed or only after the investment over time of vast amounts of resources.

If a National led coalition get a second term then perhaps within 6 years, I think they will be able to fix some of the mess.    That's how I see it.

Just make the most of life now with what resources you have.  Your lot in life in your 70's is very unlikely to be as good as it is in your 60's, that's the conclusion I have reached with enjoying things while health allows now, as front and central to my thinking.  A lot of the real pleasures of life are either free or very cheap.  A walk in the park with one's dog or coffee with friends or having your grandkids over for lunch.  No matter what Govt is in power you can enjoy these pleasures.
Just enjoy where you live and be glad you don't live in Gaza or the Ukraine.

Sorry, that was my poor sentence structure at work  ;)

I didn't mean "right now."

I mean't "What I need now, is for them to prove they have what it takes ... etc."

As in, from this point forward.

Quote from: Basil on Feb 11, 2024, 05:12 PMWhy do you need something right now you're unlikely to get straight away ?

If it means anything to you Untamed, I've chatted with Christopher Luxon at annual meetings of Air N.Z. a few times.  I was very impressed with him, and I don't impress easily.  He strikes me as highly intelligent with a very good ability to listen respectfully too and converse with people from all walks of life. A good center right Christian leader with a very good understanding of what it takes to get a country or business going. I think we're in very good hands.  He's about as different as you could possibly get from that silly little leftist / greenie leaning ideologist with no real business experience as you could get.

Good to know, although him being a Christian is irrelevant to me, providing he can keep his religious beliefs separate from his job.

He is actually not the one that worries me to be honest. Seymour is the one I am wary of, but so far Luxon appears to be "managing" that risk. We will see.
 

Quote from: Basil on Feb 11, 2024, 06:07 PMIf it means anything to you Untamed, I've chatted with Christopher Luxon at annual meetings of Air N.Z. a few times.  I was very impressed with him, and I don't impress easily.  He strikes me as highly intelligent with a very good ability to listen respectfully too and converse with people from all walks of life. A good center right Christian leader with a very good understanding of what it takes to get a country or business going. I think we're in very good hands.  He's about as different as you could possibly get from that silly little leftist / greenie leaning ideologist with no real business experience as you could get.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)

Hmmmm ...

For obvious (to anyone who knows me well) reasons, I'm staying away from this one. But thanks for sharing. It was an interesting read.

Quote from: Waltzing on Feb 12, 2024, 08:55 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-extends-lead-in-latest-poll-chris-hipkins-falls/FEFRB553ZZC37PSDUO7HQQB7EA/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labours-worst-week-highlights-its-existential-crisis-political-round-up/X5ZFOQ53UJAZXPWZVKJ4ETBTVY/

The worst Finance minister ever !!! thats what she says !!!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labours-worst-week-highlights-its-existential-crisis-political-round-up/X5ZFOQ53UJAZXPWZVKJ4ETBTVY/

Guess the government coffers aren't as empty as we are being led to believe.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/510560/christopher-luxon-claims-52k-accommodation-payment-to-live-in-own-apartment

I accept that he may be entitled to claim this, but Luxon would gain a great deal more credibility and trust, if he did the right thing here.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/council_debt_ceiling_240403

oopps someone forget to tell the PM to be nice ...  JA will send him a note... and get Hellen to have to a chat at the next UN function they all attend...

who is the NZ UN rep anyway..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/christopher-luxons-show-of-strength-is-perfect-for-our-angry-era-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/3BMNHP6S7ZGXRGRHLQW72TF2RE/

 Apparently you can just do what ever you like with a Tax funded budget ...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/mbie_paying_psa

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128064/brian-easton-impressed-how-effective-taxpayers-union-has-been-he-looks-their

The Tax payer union is looking at funding for music theory these days ... but RBZ probably a much bigger budget than some of these ...

"iHe Whiringa Māramatanga: Kaupapa Māori Music and healing

"'He Whiringa Māramatanga' examines Kaupapa Māori music theories and practices as a pathway to accelerating Māori well-being. Music theory is primarily located within Western music notation, harmony, and tonality. However, Māori Music, particularly through oral forms such as waiata, karakia, ruruku, haka, pūrākau and whakapapa, illustrate that Māori have unique key elements of musical theories to create oral legacies and that traditional Western definitions of 'music' may be confining for true Māori creative expression."

Approved funding: $377,550"

think these guy deserve some support ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq2K8ak47nM


Guided by Hine te Iwaiwa: Exploring Maramataka [traditional Māori lunar calendar] influence on pregnancy Outcomes

"This research aims to explore the effects of incorporating the maramataka, a traditional Māori lunar calendar system guided by the goddess Hine te Iwaiwa, into the context of pregnancy care for wāhine Māori and Maori Midwives."

Approved funding: $400,000

perfect ... 

Nassim Nicholas  :-* Taleb on France -

France: the unsustainable & unavoidable mutation of a standard industrial welfare state into a low-growth-high-debt museum welfare state with a medieval economy focused on handbags, cheese & wine, regardless of the "rightist" or "leftist"outcome.

France: One reason the xenophobic statist group called the "right" is gaining is that poor immigrants are incompatible w/the new French museum state -ignoring that the high ratio of Asian tourists to population also harms the marketing oriented character of that new state.

For those who still don't get the Pareto distr:
4/5 of largest French corps in capitalization, LVHM, LOréal, Hermès, & Dior are into #Lindy Medieval products.
(LVHM has > 3x the capitalization of Airbus which is not even formally French, 8x Dassault's, etc.)

Elon does not yet buy french ... but he will when he realises that girls and he has a few tagging along really really like french stuff...

 voting in the second round will show how the french voting system works and how the parties work together to block the right...

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20240701-rival-parties-race-to-block-far-right-as-france-heads-toward-legislative-run-off

there is nowhere on the planet like france and the  french language is really not only the most lyrical  but it just cant be compared to well anything really ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo0RLhg7Df0

dont under estimate the french ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes

computer controlled climate .. and it was very inventive for its time ..

https://www.musee-orsay.fr/en

and ... lets not forget  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1cnJlEIwU

some nice ships ...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship

and back in the day ... the class of class ships ...the most powerful steam turbine ship ever built ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Normandie

its just the french hate anything the rest of the world is doing ..

ok so Turner bet the french to impressionism ... but they caught up big time ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave_Ship

dont forget this will draw people from around the world forever ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism

I mean can you beat this man?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Fran%C3%A7ois_Champollion

just say it ... the french are the best ... its just they are a bit you know ... up them selves...

"Yes well will this ever be resolved they even teach it in schools as a subject at teenage .. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
redacted .... poorly worded ..

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-holocaust-survivor-speaks-of-her-anger-its-difficult-to-put-up-with-these-old-germans-a-9cc14234-653e-491c-b737-a64452bb6ceb

Quote from: Waltzing on Jul 03, 2024, 09:05 PMYes well will this ever be resolved they even teach it in schools as a subject at teenage ..

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-holocaust-survivor-speaks-of-her-anger-its-difficult-to-put-up-with-these-old-germans-a-9cc14234-653e-491c-b737-a64452bb6ceb

Difficult subject.

I wonder, though how many survivors from slavery and their families have been compensated by British, US and Dutch governments? I wonder how generous the compensation of Belgium was for the slaves they "recruited" in their colonies? What about the crimes Portugal and Spain committed in South America, what about the crimes all European nations committed in their colonies? What about the crimes committed by any historical power (like the Romans, the Mongolians, the Dutch, the British, Russia, China, US) to subjugate other countries? I wonder whether the Maori tribes ever paid compensation to each other for enslaving, killing (and eating) each other?

It does not feel that the Russians fear compensation claims coming up when they continue to commit unspeakable war crimes in the Ukraine, and neither does it feel Israel cares about committing crimes in the territories they occupy, in Gaza and in Lebanon. Does the Taliban fear compensation claims while waging their war against women?

But hey - the uncompensated for crimes done by humans to fellow humans would fill many books - and, looking at recent history, it does not appear we learned anything from that. But yes, we probably should not feel too good about ourselves. The reason humans are at the top of the food chain is not because we are nice and fair.

" I wonder whether the Maori tribes ever paid compensation to each other for enslaving, killing (and eating) each other?"

your not allowed to talk about this ... not in this ... what ever it is as its not a deomcracy and really never has been...

they dont want you to read the bill of rights and between the treaty and bill of rights its a rope pulling event...

for a good read on how a Chief saw his role read "Defenders of New Zealand" ... well the title itself is problamatic .... only one chief quoted the rest is all the british army in action with local Militia... we have family mentioned and medals in it... oh dear...

right ... fred Dag you tube video will be banned from a date to be specified by Infernal Affairs...  anyone in a cupboard found to be carry a labour party card will be interviewed ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIedNhGqWF0

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/legacy-of-prime-minister-david-lange-and-the-fourth-labour-government-re-examined-40-years-on-the-front-page/SUPXOUYX4VCXVJFBTGEL4QCXTY/

anyone with a labour membership card from this date must submit themselves to a lie detector test at the next election....

oppenheimer ... communist party card


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjPJQYoT8I

---

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/seymour_needs_to_get_on_top_of_ministry

Quote from: Waltzing on Aug 16, 2024, 10:33 AMhttps://www.taxpayers.org.nz/seymour_needs_to_get_on_top_of_ministry

I guess that's the problem - one should judge politicians at what they do after the election, not what they say before.

While National admittedly started as well some positive initiatives (like trying to improve education), it appears this government is now run by the gun lobby, the tobacco lobby and - as this article demonstrates  - we didn't got rid of the spin doctors, but are hiring more of them.

Oh dear ....

its this BP ....

is there a berlin version.... of course there is and its playing out right now..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6bNHi3hSnU


Wo ist das Telefon!!!!

Anybody here going to Boris Johnson Lunch on 3/12/24

something off here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrh63OSeF1A

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 08, 2024, 08:02 AMsomething off here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrh63OSeF1A

And they let it happen anyway.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-end-of-globalization-germanys-successful-economic-model-could-be-finished-a-f52fe977-4387-4fa8-990a-c70a5d38e2df

Quote from: Waltzing on Nov 08, 2024, 12:16 PMhttps://www.spiegel.de/international/business/the-end-of-globalization-germanys-successful-economic-model-could-be-finished-a-f52fe977-4387-4fa8-990a-c70a5d38e2df

Well, yes - the the German Export industry is currently clearly stuttering. Some of that is based on home made problems (I can't really understand why the still famous German car industry has problems to develop and produce economical electric cars), most of it is clearly based on various populist politicians around the globe protecting their economies with tariffs, and given the recent election disaster in the US, this will get worse.

On the other hand - it is in my view just a transition. Shouldn't be too hard for the European market to increase their navel gazing as the other big markets are already doing, and then they will prevent Chinese and Japanese cars, American Software and other goods to enter Europe which will give the European industry a sufficient number of clients in Europe. Easy as.

I don't think the European industry is under more threat than any other ... it is just that globally things will get more expensive for everybody, thanks to the populist clowns. More concerns I have for small countries not belonging to a big block, like New Zealand. Quite possible that we will end up as road kill when the populists are waging their childish wars.

Craig's view on markets after Trump win


It was a very successful night for Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
While the polls were close, Trump was the favourite leading up to the election, at least in
the eyes of betting markets and Wall Street.
However, the strength of his victory was a surprise.
Few predicted he would win the popular vote, while a "red sweep" across Congress also
looks possible.
Financial markets reacted very positively, with US shares hitting new highs driven by strong
gains in financials, industrials and energy.
Smaller companies also outperformed larger ones.
Bitcoin surged to a record, while the US dollar strengthened and longer-term interest rates
increased.
Trump is a pro-growth, business-friendly candidate.
Markets haven't forgotten that the S&P 500 index rallied almost 60 per cent during his
previous four years in office.
He wants to extend his own tax cuts from 2017, which will otherwise expire at the end of
next year.
He also plans to reduce regulatory and compliance costs, and he wants to spend more.
All of that is good for economic activity, corporate profitability and consumer spending.
The market reaction is justified, although some of this will come at a cost.
Lower taxes and more spending mean increasing debt levels, as well as higher inflation
and interest rates.
The Federal Reserve will still cut its policy rate tomorrow, but it might reconsider how
quickly it'll drop rates in 2025.
Tariffs will also be a headwind for global growth.
Trump is highly unlikely to go through with the 60 per cent tariff on Chinese goods, and at
least 10 per cent on everything else which he campaigned on.
The former would be highly detrimental to the US economy, and it would hurt his voting
base more than it helps them.
Expect a watered-down approach against China, and potentially more targeted (rather
than across the board) tariffs elsewhere.
Energy, defence, regulation and immigration policy will also be in the spotlight.
He'll be more sympathetic to fossil fuel energy, and there will be less of a push for green
energy.
Having said that, he's unlikely to get rid of green energy subsidies altogether given many
Republican districts have benefitted from these.
INV ES T M E NT IN S IG H T S / 02
On the defence front, last night probably wasn't a great result for Ukraine, as Trump
might block some of its funding.
He'll want to send a message to the likes of Europe and Asia, and ensure they know a
Trump-led US will be less willing to get involved in other people's conflicts.
While the outlook isn't too bad for investors, as a country New Zealand might find itself on
the wrong side of US policy over the next few years.
We are a small trading nation that is highly dependent on exports, and China and the US
are two of our biggest markets.
Tariffs and increasing trade tensions don't do our economic outlook any favours.
For investors, there is a lot to consider, although I wouldn't be making any knee-jerk
changes.
Trump won't be inaugurated until early next year, so we'll have to wait a little while to
fully assess any potential changes he might make.
His victory is a positive for economic growth in the US, which will benefit many parts of the
market.
That could mean we see a solid end to the year for US shares.
At the same time, we've already seen a strong rally so we shouldn't count on a repeat of
the returns we saw from 2016 to 2020.
The risks of tariffs and a trade war suggest an element of caution is wise, given these are
negative for global growth.
Diversification is the best protection for investors against this uncertainty, so ensure
portfolios are well spread across asset classes and regions.
Fixed income still looks reasonable, and the recent increase in yields has increased its
attractiveness from an income perspective.
After all, income should be the primary reason we hold fixed income.
Within equities, ensure portfolios are globally diversified.
The US economy is well-positioned, while Trump's "America First" policies will benefit
many sectors and ensure the greenback is well-supported.
Stay invested in the US, but consider complementing this with some better value
opportunities elsewhere.
It might also be a good time to consider alternative assets, including the likes of real
estate, infrastructure, transportation and private equity.
Finally, remember that markets will ultimately be driven by the economy, central bank
policy and corporate earnings.
Political change is something investors will always have to grapple with.
Those who stay disciplined, ensure they are well diversified and follow common sense
investing principles will always be well-positioned for the long-term.

thanks for that SG.

80,000 kiwis left nz last 22 months

One commentator says-


Every 6 minutes, another NZ citizen votes with their feet.
Apparently our love of chucking people on the dole, abject failure to plan strategically, and stupid 8-wire approach to hard and soft infrastructure, is making NZ a less attractive place for kiwis to live. Fancy that!

 if you think the white house is going to be a sane place in the next 4 or more years... they might not leave....

check this out... dont think many kiwis have even noticed how cray this guy is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yknkdjMzA0

it appears in wellington the press is no longer free to report on what Ministry of business is up to....

4 million was spent sent to a private company to sing whales songs to trees...

part of the new age of what the treaty means to the people and trees.....

the ministry says it top science.....

well im asking PHD's what they think and it appears they are all to scared to say what they think as universities pay the bills....

could NZ actually be a corrupt country?

Just like all those other countries that the press here looks down on?

Quote from: Waltzing on Jan 27, 2025, 09:41 PMit appears in wellington the press is no longer free to report on what Ministry of business is up to....

4 million was spent sent to a private company to sing whales songs to trees...

part of the new age of what the treaty means to the people and trees.....

the ministry says it top science.....

well im asking PHD's what they think and it appears they are all to scared to say what they think as universities pay the bills....

could NZ actually be a corrupt country?

Just like all those other countries that the press here looks down on?

Interesting ... here is a link:

https://www.chrislynchmedia.com/news-items/4-million-spent-on-kauri-tree-research-using-whale-song-and-whale-oil-potions/

Actually - I like Chris Lynch for local news (given that the mainstream media hardly provide any).Sort of worrying though, that they seem to be silent on this nonsense as well. Lets put it onto the long summer sleep they do every year.

thanks for that and that is why we send our IT back to europe where the science created it in the first place...


with this war likely to wind down a bit breakfest on the baltic might be nuclear free again ....

loved being here but the locals are just in a lovely world of there own where the big wide world doesnt exisit...

well this is great job if you can get it in politics...

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/representative_gets_8000

US education department being dismantled... how many NZ departments and off shoots need dismembering here that has left the government in debt that it cant fund defense...

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/20/politics/education-department-trump-executive-order/index.html

Quote from: Waltzing on Mar 21, 2025, 12:24 PMUS education department being dismantled... how many NZ departments and off shoots need dismembering here that has left the government in debt that it cant fund defense...

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/20/politics/education-department-trump-executive-order/index.html

Hmm - not a fan of Trump's dictatorial actions, and don't know enough about the US Education system and the ministries role in a deeply divided country. Considering however that the US system produced a mongrel like Trump as its best man, it clearly can't be good, and given that Trumps clientele are the dumb and the uneducated people, it is no surprise that he tries to work hard to increase his voterbase.

If however the US Education ministry is similarly (or still more) useless than the Ministry of Education in NZ (speaking as a parent and a former member of a board of trustees), he actually might have unintentionally done the country a service. NZ schools clearly would run better and have more time to produce good outcomes, if they wouldn't be constantly hold back by a hapless MoE.

Better use the money saved to pay teachers and educate children.

its all the government offshoots.. back to basics...in fact if robot production gets really going you just rent a robot on you tube and thats your school...the robot comes from robo blocks gaming software...

they think there software is going to control the world...

but there are other models running now....

its like this forum... its dead...and we have our own GUI AI LIVE under research now...a very special software engine running as of a few months ago..

it bye bye to the old paradigm of software and AI extended think anthropic agrees.

Interesting - new RMA proposal from the coalition govt.

Don't know enough about it to comment on its validity

However its pretty dickish putting it to the house mid December and closing consultation towards the end of January.
Anyone who wants to submit feedback basically has to work through the holidays.
Talk about shoving changes down the people's throats.

Quote from: HAWKDOG on Nov 26, 2025, 08:53 AMInteresting - new RMA proposal from the coalition govt.

Don't know enough about it to comment on its validity

However its pretty dickish putting it to the house mid December and closing consultation towards the end of January.
Anyone who wants to submit feedback basically has to work through the holidays.
Talk about shoving changes down the people's throats.

Same with me ... don't know enough about the proposal to comment. Agree however with your timing assessment. Things like that need to be discussed by stakeholders and shouldn't be rushed through over the holidays and in many cases as well with new local governments just learning to crawl ...

Crazy thought - what if Labour and National joined in a coalition ditching both the right and left extremes?  Chris squared.

Quote from: HAWKDOG on Feb 05, 2026, 08:57 AMCrazy thought - what if Labour and National joined in a coalition ditching both the right and left extremes?  Chris squared.

Might well be the only option possible ... and hey, they do this in other countries these days (like currently in Germany).

The only thing is - its not typically a growthstrategy for the  parties involved in this government ... and the step after the big coalition is not quite clear and not always quite pleasant looking.