StockTalk

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/flood-of-noah-like-proportions-the-studies-revealing-long-covids-hidden-toll-in-nz/XOHJIOSOLGI2T63NEVMMAOGWIU/

Interesting article.  Length of symptoms seems to vary enormously as does one's initial reaction to Covid.  Day 11 for me and day 13 for Mrs B.  Zero energy and a pretty bad cough that's lingering for both Beagle's.  Glad the severe headaches, fever, sore stomach and diarrhea is behind me...wasn't much fun.  I have no idea when we will both be back to normal.

Any idea where you got it?

My household has dodged it so far - about 50% of acquaintances have had it, but haven't seen a case (in our circles) for a couple of months now.

Yes, grossly overcrowded after hours White Cross healthcare service centers are a very risky place to spend any time.    Mrs B didn't go for Covid but we believe she caught it there.

That's the thing with Covid - it is so transmissible that you can pick it up from anywhere.  It seems to affect people differently.  Take the time to recover properly.  There is nothing to be gained by rushing it.  Get well soon!

As I sit in bed in our apartment in surfers after day 4 of self imposed exile with COVID. I ponder how unlucky or lucky we are to finally get the bug in Australia. 

Our first family trip to the GC in years got off to a great start. What's not to like, Beautiful white sandy beaches, endless  sun, stunning views from our apartment. Fresh prawns from Coles, And a BWS bottle store and shopping mall a few metres from the lift.

It was all going so well until day 4 when the symptoms started and I confirmed with a rat test that we brought with us from NZ.

The anti viral drug i've been told was a game changer so after day 3 of feeling rubbish and watching the world go by I asked the wife to find a doctor and see if I could get some. She soon comes back and says that the surgery is closed for new online patients but the good news was that anyone could go in my place for a "face to face "appointment. The bad news was that Lagevrio which contain molnupiravir were $1000 for a treatment. I'm worth it honey.......door slammed.

I'm one lucky lad to be sick in the Gold Coast because my lovely wife was soon home with a bottle of this wonder drug and bugger me it's covered by Medicare for us kiwis over 50.

In NZ to get them these are the criteria

One of the following must also apply:

you are aged 65-plus
you are Māori or Pacific ethnicity aged 50-plus
you are aged 50-plus AND have had fewer than two COVID-19 vaccinations
you have a severely weakened immune system (see more information below)
you have Down syndrome
you have sickle cell disease
you have previously been in critical care or high dependency hospital care from COVID-19
you have three or more high-risk medical conditions (see list below)

I did not meet any of the above criteria. This drug was a Game changer for me.  Hours after taking the first dose I was feeling the difference and after two days of taking the medication I'm at 90% and actually feeling pretty good.

The Doctor who gave out the prescription made comment that it's the "first call" for anyone with Covid over here and what took me so long to ask. The sooner you take it the better the doc says.

So Shareguy is felling lucky in the GC.

Quoteyou are aged 65-plus
you are Māori or Pacific ethnicity aged 50-plus

This got me really riled up because if I was Maori or Pacific ethnicity, I could get it for free but becase I am European, not 65 yet and don't meet the criteria elsewhere stated I could not get that antiviral for free or even by paying thousands for it !  How is that not deliberate calculated reverse racism against Europeans I do not understand ? Count yourself as very fortunate because Mrs B and I both got Covid in late September and it wasn't really until early November until we were both feeling 100%.  The first 2 weeks was the worst.   

If you are already feeling 90% you're doing really well. On another subject, I tell ya, aircraft are a dangerous place to catch it.  I'd bet a few bob someone on the aircraft had it and you breathed in their fumes and bingo, you got it.

Take it easy with your recovery mate.  Don't push yourself too hard, that's how you get long Covid.  Send the kids down to the pool or drop them off at the theme parks and kick back and relax in the cafes there.

Somewhat interestingly, I was double vaxxed and boosted and Mrs B is anti vax and wouldn't take the antiviral either despite being eligible.
I don't reckon there was much difference between the severity of the symptoms for us two except despite being double vaxxed and boosted I got stomach cramps and pains much worse than she did and my fever lasted a bit longer....go figure...  She took much pleasure in telling me more than once my vaccine shots were useless...isn't it "great" you can always count on your other half to say I told you so lol

Yes Basil I think a lot of people would not be happy with the criteria. It's a shame that the governments don't lower it for everyone as it saves a lot of pain and suffering. 

I bet your wife gave you heaps about the vaccine. 😂  I think most family's would have a anti vaxer somewhere,we certainly do.

Thanks for your comments.

Pleased you are on the mend Shareguy.

And no Basil it is not reverse racism that Maori and Pacifica people are eligible for anti viral medication. It is based on medical evidence that they are an at risk population.

As per the Covid-19 Website

 "The recommendation was made as "clear evidence" showed the risk of death from Covid-19 for Māori and Pacific peoples was around twice that of the general population.

Māori and Pacific people also had a two to threefold increased risk of hospitalisation from Covid-19"

Quote from: RupertBear on Nov 19, 2022, 10:05 PMPleased you are on the mend Shareguy.

And no Basil it is not reverse racism that Maori and Pacifica people are eligible for anti viral medication. It is based on medical evidence that they are an at risk population.

As per the Covid-19 Website

 "The recommendation was made as "clear evidence" showed the risk of death from Covid-19 for Māori and Pacific peoples was around twice that of the general population.

Māori and Pacific people also had a two to threefold increased risk of hospitalisation from Covid-19"

How does denying treatment to European people lower the risk of Maori people dying or being hospitalised?  The two are not related.  If Maori have a higher propensity to die from Covid give them treatment. If anyone else has a risk of dying, regardless of their race, give them treatment.  Since risk of dying is directly related to obesity levels, and Maori and Pacific Islanders have higher obesity levels than Europeans, then they are at higher risk of dying.  However, why does the health system deny treatment to an obese European who has the exact same risk of dying, on the basis that they are not Maori?

Secondly absolute numbers show vastly greater numbers of hospitalised and dead Europeans.  12,000 Europeans were hospitalised with Covid compared to just 3600 Maori.  2554 Europeans have died compared to just 327 Maori.  So if one wanted to alleviate the strain on hospitals or funeral homes, Europeans should be prioritised over Maori.  How many of those 2554 Europeans could have been saved from death if they had been given access to the drug?

Well said KW.   Its absolutely repugnant that I couldn't even buy the treatment at great cost to myself.  My medical records show that I am a fat old dog but I wasn't the right color.  Not only was I racially discriminated against by the health system I was locked out of it. 

Quote from: Basil on Nov 20, 2022, 09:59 AMWell said KW.  Its absolutely repugnant that I couldn't even buy the treatment at great cost to myself.  My medical records show that I am a fat old dog but I wasn't the right color.  Not only was I racially discriminated against by the health system I was locked out of it. 

Back on topic, my anecdotal observations are that long covid is also directly related to obesity levels.  That being said, I have only come across one person who has long covid.  Remember when the "experts" were trying to convince us that 30% of those who get covid will have long covid?  File that one in the bin along with "you will not get sick and die if you get vaccinated" from our Single Source Of Truth.  https://twitter.com/DrPhilWilkinson/status/1556187875729096704

For what its worth both Mrs B and I would fit the medical definition of being obese and It took about 5 weeks for us to both feel that we are back to the same level of health and wellbeing as we were before catching it.  The last week and a half (approx) of that was simply a lack of energy issue which I suppose is quite normal recovering from Covid.  Not sure you could really describe the above as "long Covid", (it certainly felt like a long journey going through it), probably not.  Its probably quite a normal length of time to be affected for people our age and weight. 
Hope I don't catch it again, it's not much fun, I can certainly attest to that !  Speaking of that possibility I see case numbers are 20,000+ a week and growing.
We're not out of the woods with this whole Covid thing by any means.  Be careful out there folks especially in confined spaces with a lot of other people, like aircraft.

What disappoints me is that the government of the day seems to be able to print money like there is no tomorrow. In NZ for this drug I am discriminated on race and because I'm fully vaccinated and fully boosted and do not have any underlying health conditions.

Why have the race card at all? Are we not all part of the same team of 5 million.  Would it not have been better to make this free for everyone over 50 or what ever the age and avoid the resentment that is building from these types of policies. I'm sure plenty of Māori and Pacifica resent being singled out like this.

I have spoken to other people who have taken this anti viral drug who all agree with me and said it's a game changer. Why has the government stopped people who don't meet the criteria from buying the medication themselves? Answer is it's not fair on the people who can't afford it.

In my opinion until we start treating "everyone"as equal we will never heal the rift. And what's more concerning is the rift seems to be getting worse by the day.

Quote from: RupertBear on Nov 19, 2022, 10:05 PMPleased you are on the mend Shareguy.


Thanks RupertBear. Welcome to stocktalk.

Quote from: Shareguy on Nov 20, 2022, 01:35 PMWhat disappoints me is that the government of the day seems to be able to print money like there is no tomorrow. In NZ for this drug I am discriminated on race and because I'm fully vaccinated and fully boosted and do not have any underlying health conditions.

Why have the race card at all? Are we not all part of the same team of 5 million.  Would it not have been better to make this free for everyone over 50 or what ever the age and avoid the resentment that is building from these types of policies. I'm sure plenty of Māori and Pacifica resent being singled out like this.

I have spoken to other people who have taken this anti viral drug who all agree with me and said it's a game changer. Why has the government stopped people who don't meet the criteria from buying the medication themselves? Answer is it's not fair on the people who can't afford it.

In my opinion until we start treating "everyone"as equal we will never heal the rift. And what's more concerning is the rift seems to be getting worse by the day.

The creation of the blanket term "Whiteness" is racist to the core. It imputes to anyone considered not sufficiently pigmented some sort of conspiratorial evil regardless of an individuals character, beliefs, family history or ideological outlook. By the way the special treatment is now for over 40 not 50.

So there's more of this special medication available, (I have read it was quite limited supply for a while), so instead of making it available for free or even at a cost of thousands to anyone obese aged 50 or above they make it available for free to certain favored ethnicities aged 40+.  Hmmm

QuoteIn my opinion until we start treating "everyone"as equal we will never heal the rift. And what's more concerning is the rift seems to be getting worse by the day. Shareguy

I agree 100%.  This Government are asleep at the wheel or in complete denial about the divisions their policies like for just one example, the proposed co-governance of three waters, is creating.  Whatever happened to Sir Douglas Graham's $1 Billion full and final settlement?

The problem with racial profiling for allocation of healthcare resources is where does it end ?
Should I still be grateful I am eligible for the free Bowel screening program ? (that was a "fun" little job today). How would people feel if the Govt suddenly said oh gosh, there's only limited dollars to go around and Maori and Pacific Islanders are more likely to get Bowel cancer so other ethnicities are no longer eligible for free treatment and we won't process testing even if you pay for it yourself.  Where does this end ?

Not even being able to buy the medicine with your own money is not on (assuming there is no shortage). However, funding medicine based on risk factors (of which race, socioeconomic status etc may be some) makes sense when a health system with limited resources is trying to maximize the benefits of those resources. Should children (who as a group have very low risk with covid) receive fully funded covid medicine at $1000 each? Isn't it special treatment that only older people can have it?

yaaaay! apartheid...

also, I got the bot and stuck in bed for 3 days, 3 more to get energy back.

Wouldn't worry about it chaps, unless you're a fatty, or have 4 other things trying to kill you.

I remember back when the drug was first made available, and there was no age limit on it - just race. If you were Maori you could get the drug no questions asked, but if you were European you had to have five co-morbidities to qualify.  
Then they introduced an age qualification for non-Maori - it was 75 years of age.  This was at the same time when the average age of hospitalised covid patients was 64. So basically the Govt chose to deny treatment to vast numbers of European and Asian patients, even while knowing that those younger than 75 were ending up in hospital.  
It was only recently (after the Omicron outbreak was practically over) that they dropped the age limit to 65.  

But this health policy is not limited to Covid - its throughout the entire health system.  Non-Maori are now de-prioritised on surgical waiting lists. Access to free bowel cancer screening is also based on race.  Who knows what else is is racially determined and we just don't know about it - chemotherapy appointments, radiology?  An acquaintance of mine was told he had to wait 4 weeks for someone to read his brain scan results, meanwhile he was having seizures every day and couldnt work or drive.  

Oh my goodness KW...you are confirming my worst fears.  Just as well I have a few quid set aside so I can get private medical treatment.  I did get a free Bowel screening kit the other day.  Wonder if that will be the last time I am eligible for that ?

A lot of South Africans i know including my wife can't believe that many Kiwis are so blind they can't see that we are now in a planned/developing Apartheid regime under the current Govt, medical Apartheid as seen by what is being discussed here is just one branch of the growing tree.

Quote from: Basil on Nov 21, 2022, 11:16 AMOh my goodness KW...you are confirming my worst fears.  Just as well I have a few quid set aside so I can get private medical treatment.  I did get a free Bowel screening kit the other day.  Wonder if that will be the last time I am eligible for that ?

In Australia free from 50 for all with national screening.

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/national-bowel-cancer-screening-program/getting-a-bowel-screening-test

Quote from: kasper on Nov 21, 2022, 11:22 AMA lot of South Africans i know including my wife can't believe that many Kiwis are so blind they can't see that we are now in a planned/developing Apartheid regime under the current Govt, medical Apartheid as seen by what is being discussed here is just one branch of the growing tree.

Without any doubt whatsoever this the most divisive and Woke Government in my lifetime.

Welcome back, you took quite a long break from the forum.  Hope you're doing okay.

Quote from: kasper on Nov 21, 2022, 11:22 AMA lot of South Africans i know including my wife can't believe that many Kiwis are so blind they can't see that we are now in a planned/developing Apartheid regime under the current Govt, medical Apartheid as seen by what is being discussed here is just one branch of the growing tree.

All foreigners I know say the same.  They see things clearly. 

It is almost as if (in general) Kiwis are completely apathetic or have been lulled into a false sense of security that the gumbint means them no harm.

What is almost as sad is when those folks get red pilled...usually when it is too late and they are left to fend for themselves...how privileged

Magna Carta and 1689 bill of rights should be taught in this land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

instead the lastest education act of 2020 seems to try and bring that patchy piece of parchment  into the class room as having a higher precedence than statue laws going back hundreds of years before that agreement.

the people of this land have no say over what their children are now being taught in schools.

want your child to be an international person? no chance if they arnt learning an international language by the age of 5.

Nice to see Sir Ashley Bloomfield honored for his service.  I don't agree with everything they did, especially the 107 day lockdown for the Auckland region in late 2021 and using Auckland hotels for quarantine centers close to the largest population base in N.Z. but he did have a lovely calm and professional manner about him in all the press conferences I saw that I think was VERY helpful.  Interview here. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/focus-new-year-honours-2023-sir-ashley-bloomfield/J3KWUS7L45IRTMITJI64SJL4SI/

Quote from: Basil on Dec 31, 2022, 10:54 AMNice to see Sir Ashley Bloomfield honored for his service.  I don't agree with everything they did, especially the 107 day lockdown for the Auckland region in late 2021 and using Auckland hotels for quarantine centers close to the largest population base in N.Z. but he did have a lovely calm and professional manner about him in all the press conferences I saw that I think was VERY helpful.  Interview here. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/focus-new-year-honours-2023-sir-ashley-bloomfield/J3KWUS7L45IRTMITJI64SJL4SI/

If his advice and management was valid, reliable and successful it would be repeatable. How many covid cases and deaths do we have today?

He ran a department that couldn't manage PPE, was incapable of gathering accurate data (upon which modelers created their fanciful predictions), couldn't organize vaccine distribution, took nurses out of critical areas and into higher paying vaccination centres, introduced mandates that took health care workers out of the system, prevented people who needed health assessments from getting those assessment and creating a logjam of healthcare that will stretch way into the  future.

He was a part of the team that forgot humanity and lacked economic nouse.

I have never really understood why people get honours for doing their jobs for which they are paid handsomely to do. Unless its a way of ensuring the skeletons stay buried.

So this was just published today.  Turns out that we were all locked down, locked up, excluded and ostracised, and forced into taking an experimental gene therapy all for nothing.  Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people.  Now we get to spend decades paying for the socio and economic destruction that was wrought on the general population (particularly children) for no good reason.

From the data above, Median infection fatality rate (IFR) during the PRE-VACCINATION ERA was:

• 0.0003% at 0–19 years
• 0.002% at 20–29 years
• 0.011% at 30–39 years
• 0.035% at 40–49 years
• 0.123% at 50–59 years
• 0.506% at 60–69 years

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512201982X

Quote from: KW on Jan 01, 2023, 04:35 PMSo this was just published today.  Turns out that we were all locked down, locked up, excluded and ostracised, and forced into taking an experimental gene therapy all for nothing.  Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people.  Now we get to spend decades paying for the socio and economic destruction that was wrought on the general population (particularly children) for no good reason.

From the data above, Median infection fatality rate (IFR) during the PRE-VACCINATION ERA was:

• 0.0003% at 0–19 years
• 0.002% at 20–29 years
• 0.011% at 30–39 years
• 0.035% at 40–49 years
• 0.123% at 50–59 years
• 0.506% at 60–69 years

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512201982X

Xi Jinping's trying to sell this to China now in a complete reversal of the most severe lockdowns in the world. 

A 1 in 200 chance of death for those in the 60-69 age group is a pretty serious risk of death and I can attest that for Mrs B and I it certainly was a very serious illness.  It grinds my gears more than a little bit when some people simply call it a cold.

Most young people I have spoken too about it have shaken it off easily in a few days so I can understand from their perspective its nothing to be concerned about.  What I deduce from the above statistics and my discussions with young people is that if you own a retail stock like HLG with its primary target market being young people, you have little to fear from the current resurgent third wave in terms of its impact on limiting young's people's propensity to shop.

On the other hand I have noticed a definite increase in the number of older people wearing masks at the supermarket recently.  These people are not being fooled by the Govt's manipulation of the seriousness of this third wave by only reporting Covid numbers weekly.

Absent from the above statistics are the mortality rate for people in their 70's 80's and 90's.   They have plenty to be concerned about with Covid.

For some perspective, this was produced by the Financial Times using UK data.  A very interesting visualisation from a reputable publisher.  Just like no one wants a bad dose of the flu, no one wants a bad dose of covid...

(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https://d6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net/prod/c82492a0-9fc0-11ec-9e3a-93fb9dabcc7a-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700)

Quote from: Basil on Jan 02, 2023, 11:09 AMA 1 in 200 chance of death for those in the 60-69 age group is a pretty serious risk of death and I can attest that for Mrs B and I it certainly was a very serious illness.  It grinds my gears more than a little bit when some people simply call it a cold.

Absent from the above statistics are the mortality rate for people in their 70's 80's and 90's.  They have plenty to be concerned about with Covid.

Did you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

Quote from: KW on Jan 03, 2023, 12:20 AMDid you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

Up the wazoo :o  :o  :o Crikey, the shot was bad enough in the arm!

Quote from: KW on Jan 03, 2023, 12:20 AMDid you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

I am sure we could have done things still better ... we always could. However - if I compare NZ with the majority of other countries, than we did quite well, didn't we? One of the lowest mortality rates in the world ... and our economy survived as well quite intact in comparison.

You sound very heartless, and I think you know that your proposal would not have worked. Sounds a bit like the Swedish model, and they lost a lot of elderlies.

"Just" locking down the elderlies ... how exactly are you doing that? You need to lock down as well anybody coming in contact with them. Carers, nurses, families, grandchildren, cafeteria staff, hairdresser ... actually a big part of the population.

And what about anybody with preconditions. Don't they deserve to live? Sure, some might be just fat due to lack of discipline, but others do have a medical condition they are not responsible for. And what about the people who have cancer, had (or need) heart surgery and many other conditions? Do you think they are surplus to requirements - or how exactly do you lock down more than 50% of the population while giving the rest (who is interacting with the locked down lot as carers, health workers, teachers, service providers) full freedoms?

Did you discuss this view with anybody you care about who would be vulnerable?

So what you say is - the people who are young, healthy and not overweight are fine and don't need to lock down ... and screw the rest? Is this what you are saying?

Well, you are not getting younger either ... just think about where and how you want to end up.

Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake. But apart from that they would not have changed anything.  So yeah, the Swedish model with "targeted protection of the elderly (and unwell, and fat people who cant be bothered going on a diet).  Otherwise known as the Great Barrington Declaration.

How do you manage it?  Daily testing of workers.  Protective equipment.  Increased sanitation procedures. 

At the end of the day, we didnt "save" any lives.  The vast majority of elderly and unwell people that were vulnerable to Covid died anyway, they just didnt die from Covid.  2021 was a record year for deaths in NZ.  2022 is on track to surpass 2021.  Less than half of the excess deaths in 2022 (those over and above the 2021 number) can be attributed to Covid.  Everyone still died.  Just that we destroyed healthy people's lives/livelihoods/education as well.

Am I cold hearted in believing that giving elderly and sick people a few extra months of life in their rest home or hospital was not worth destroying others?  Maybe, but so be it.  Death comes to us all.   If I were 83 (the average age of Covid death) would I expect everyone else to sacrifice themselves so I can hang on for a bit longer?  No.   Anyone who thinks otherwise is a selfish narcissist.

And here we all are "living with covid".  Where is the outrage now?  How are we managing the elderly and unwell now?  Whatever we are doing now, we could have done back then.  Vaccines were available in early 2021, all the elderly and vulnerable could have been vaccinated by February 2021 and the country could have gone back to normal then.  Instead we had another 18 months of restrictions, including a 4 month lockdown of Auckland, closed borders preventing people from returning to the country, and the social exclusion of healthy people from society.  For what?

Quote from: KW on Jan 03, 2023, 11:19 AMSweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake. But apart from that they would not have changed anything.  So yeah, the Swedish model with "targeted protection of the elderly (and unwell, and fat people who cant be bothered going on a diet).  Otherwise known as the Great Barrington Declaration.

How do you manage it?  Daily testing of workers.  Protective equipment.  Increased sanitation procedures. 

At the end of the day, we didnt "save" any lives.  The vast majority of elderly and unwell people that were vulnerable to Covid died anyway, they just didnt die from Covid.  2021 was a record year for deaths in NZ.  2022 is on track to surpass 2021.  Less than half of the excess deaths in 2022 (those over and above the 2021 number) can be attributed to Covid.  Everyone still died.  Just that we destroyed healthy people's lives/livelihoods/education as well.

Sounds like you are a woman with an axe to grind. Maybe you should first look into facts instead of preaching your religion.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

NZ had (as per today) 717 Covid deaths per million of population, while Sweden had 2133 Covid deaths per million. Three times as many killed as percentage of population. I guess it might not make any difference to you, but it for sure made a difference to the more than 7000 Kiwis who survived in NZ while they would have died under the Swedish regime. Anybody you love who would make up that number?

Just to clarify the numbers: Sweden killed 2133 per million, while NZ killed only 717 ... i.e. the Swedish method killed 1416 per million more than the NZ method. Multiply that with 5 (million) - and you arrive at the more than 7000 people I talked about. Ask any of them and their relatives which method they would have preferred.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jan 03, 2023, 11:29 AMSounds like you are a woman with an axe to grind. Maybe you should first look into facts instead of preaching your religion.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

NZ had (as per today) 717 Covid deaths per million of population, while Sweden had 2133 Covid deaths per million. Three times as many killed as percentage of population. I guess it might not make any difference to you, but it for sure made a difference to the more than 7000 Kiwis who survived in NZ while they would have died under the Swedish regime. Anybody you love who would make up that number?

Just to clarify the numbers: Sweden killed 2133 per million, while NZ killed only 717 ... i.e. the Swedish method killed 1416 per million more than the NZ method. Multiply that with 5 (million) - and you arrive at the more than 7000 people I talked about. Ask any of them and their relatives which method they would have preferred.

I'm not sure what your point is?  I said "Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake."  So what I am saying is like Sweden, but with targeted protection of the elderly and vulnerable.  If Sweden had done that they wouldnt have lost so many (although as I've pointed out, those people would still have died anyway from something else).

All my elderly relatives (70+) who have had covid have survived, none were hospitalised, most said they just had a bad cough (sorry Basil, but thats what they said).  They now wonder what the point of lockdowns and everything else was for as well.   

I think New Zealand just got lucky, keeping out covid long enough for it to weaken.  The vaccines werent the game changer everyone hoped they would be, but perhaps they helped old people somewhat?  I agree that after everyone had the opportunity to get vaccinated we should have gone back to Plan A, and stopped the extreme measures of shutting down society and incessantly pushing a single solution policy.  Overall the costs were too high, and we still do not fully understand them because they are not over by a long shot. 

I also dont think you can do a comparison with Sweden just looking at (with?  of?) covid deaths, you have to look at all of the costs and benefits not just some.  It is just too simplistic.  With such one dimensional thinking you could justify shutting down the roads to eliminate road deaths.  Or stop weekend sports to end sports injuries.  There is a reason that Pharmac wont fund a $10m drug that would save 10 lives if the same $10m could be used to save 1000 lives, by doin this are they "killing" the unfortunate 10?

Quote from: KW on Jan 03, 2023, 11:58 AM I'm not sure what your point is?  I said "Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake."  So what I am saying is like Sweden, but with targeted protection of the elderly and vulnerable.  If Sweden had done that they wouldnt have lost so many (although as I've pointed out, those people would still have died anyway from something else).

All my elderly relatives (70+) who have had covid have survived, none were hospitalised, most said they just had a bad cough (sorry Basil, but thats what they said).  They now wonder what the point of lockdowns and everything else was for as well.   

Look - it is quite disappointing that you consistently work with "well, it was fine for me and my relatives".

Sounds like the story with six people playing Russian roulette in a room with a revolver: five came out of the room and told us that everything was fine. Number six didn't made a statement, so we assume she agreed, don't we?

Does this mean that Russian Roulette is a safe game?

I know as well people who tell me it is safe to drive without safety belt. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say as well its safe to smoke. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say drink driving is safe, they did it before and they are still around. Do I need to say more?

and yes, some people mock the Covid measures, because they happened to belong to the people who came through quite fine. Why care about the rest ... ?

Congratulations that Covid worked out for you and your family, but making policies based on a statistically absolutely irrelevant number would be pretty dumb, actually braindead populism.

But yes, you are right - populism is always braindead, i.e. this statement was a duplication :) ;

I'm concerned this thread has gone off the topic of "Long Covid" and is at risk of becoming politically contentious. If you wish to debate past/present covid policy I think it would be best to make a new thread. I don't have much appetite for these kinds of debates to exist on this forum (I don't think anyone will change their minds i.e. it is a pointless argument), I won't hesitate to remove posts etc if things start getting sour. If you are up for it we could do a debate style thread such as:

Team 1 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 1 rebuttal of Team 2 viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 rebuttal of Team 1 viewpoint (1 post)
Thread locked to all replies

While this has some short comings, it would also allow both sides to fully explain their viewpoints in a concise manner while avoiding an endless argument.

Quote from: Administrator on Jan 03, 2023, 01:02 PMI'm concerned this thread has gone off the topic of "Long Covid" and is at risk of becoming politically contentious. If you wish to debate past/present covid policy I think it would be best to make a new thread. I don't have much appetite for these kinds of debates to exist on this forum (I don't think anyone will change their minds i.e. it is a pointless argument), I won't hesitate to remove posts etc if things start getting sour. If you are up for it we could do a debate style thread such as:

Team 1 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 1 rebuttal of Team 2 viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 rebuttal of Team 1 viewpoint (1 post)
Thread locked to all replies

While this has some short comings, it would also allow both sides to fully explain their viewpoints in a concise manner while avoiding an endless argument.

Count me out!  I have an eighteen year old isolating in his room now.  That's enough bloody Covid in my day. 

Yes let's get this back on track.  Long term effect "Brain fog".
Article here from Harvard medical school. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-is-covid-19-brain-fog-and-how-can-you-clear-it-2021030822076
Since recovering from the physical symptoms of Covid in mid -late October and feeling back to normal energy levels around mid November I would say its taking me longer to "get going" in terms of mental thought processes in the mornings.  Mrs B reports the same thing and seems to be sleeping in a lot longer.

Whether this is a product of simply getting older, My Dad retired at 61 and I am tempted to do the same now I've reached the same age in November last year or is it brain fog I cannot reliably say.  What I can say is I am reluctant to make any investment decisions or do any professional work for clients until after my second coffee mid morning.  I used to be sharper than that....I suppose this is just yet another one of the "joy's" of getting a bit older ?

Quote from: Basil on Jan 03, 2023, 02:17 PMWhether this is a product of simply getting older, My Dad retired at 61 and I am tempted to do the same now I've reached the same age in November last year or is it brain fog I cannot reliably say.  What I can say is I am reluctant to make any investment decisions or do any professional work for clients until after my second coffee mid morning.  I used to be sharper than that....I suppose this is just yet another one of the "joy's" of getting a bit older ?

And how much of it is just undiagnosed mild depression from 3 years of living under great stress being told you were about to die at any moment, months locked up in your house with minimal social contact with people, and unable to take holidays to relax?  I think most people felt crap before they had covid, but long covid stories has simply made them more aware of  how crap they feel. 

Quote from: KW on Jan 03, 2023, 02:37 PMAnd how much of it is just undiagnosed mild depression from 3 years of living under great stress being told you were about to die at any moment, months locked up in your house with minimal social contact with people, and unable to take holidays to relax?  I think most people felt crap before they had covid, but long covid stories has simply made them more aware of  how crap they feel. 

Yeap, I hear you and agree 110%.  Its been really, really tough this whole thing on people's mental health.
It's hard to be too prescriptive as to what's causing one's general malaise, but I think a lot of people are carrying a lot of mental health wounds from nearly 3 years of this pandemic, myself included.   I've found getting back into boating tremendously helpful in starting to heal the wounds.   Maybe everyone should embrace the hobbies they used to enjoy and to heck with the cost ?  One thing I know for sure from my previous battle with depression many years ago...you have to keep making deposits into your "joy bank" over and over and over and.....again and feeling well again in terms of one's mental health takes a lot of time and a conscious effort to realise that being heavily in overdraft in terms of your mental health wellbeing isn't something that gets fixed quickly.  Every time i step on board and enjoy that big puppy whether it's just Mrs B and I or with friends and family that's another good sized desposit in my "joy bank" and another step back towards feeling 100% again.  I think everyone needs to spend a lot of time in their "happy place", wherever that may be, to help get over what we've been through.  Whether its classic cars, art, getting out in nature, walking your dogs in a park, the beach... whatever is your happy place, spend lots and lots of time there and you'll feel a lot better.

I feel for the people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (often following a bout of the Epstein Barr virus) who were gaslight by the medical establishment and told it was all in their heads, or at least untreatable.  My observation is that long covid is a rebranding of post-viral fatigue/after effects similar to so called glandular fever.  Most people recover fine - some do not.  Whether it is more frequent or more severe than from other viruses is an open question, which is not to deny that clearly it knocks some people around, and can hang around for quite some time. 

There was a study I saw that tracked people with covid and other viruses, they found that less from the covid cohort suffered from long covid.  From memory there were only 1000 participants, so not the final word but interesting nevertheless.  Maybe all of this sudden focus on viral after effects will have a tangential effect of shedding some light on the causes of and treatments for hitherto ignored CFS/fibromyalgia sufferers?

THose struggling to shake the after effects of covid (or any illness) have my sympathy.

You know how the Govt banged on about how Maori were far more likely to die from Covid than Europeans, and that's why they have preferential access to anti virals and other priority healthcare?  Turns out that's a complete lie as well.  Since April 2022 more Europeans per 100k of population have died than Maori.  Seems that denying European New Zealanders access to the drugs is literally hanging them out to die, not that this Govt cares one iota



screenshot-tewhatuora.shinyapps.io-2023.02.11-17_36_34.png

If you have time can you please make a formal compliant to the Race Relations commissioner about this.
I am sick and tired of this racism, (favorable access to antivirals but only if you are the preferred ethnicity) directed at Europeans.
https://tikatangata.org.nz/about-us/meng-foon
I will do the same.

Quote from: KW on Feb 11, 2023, 05:41 PMYou know how the Govt banged on about how Maori were far more likely to die from Covid than Europeans, and that's why they have preferential access to anti virals and other priority healthcare?  Turns out that's a complete lie as well.  Since April 2022 more Europeans per 100k of population have died than Maori.  Seems that denying European New Zealanders access to the drugs is literally hanging them out to die, not that this Govt cares one iota



screenshot-tewhatuora.shinyapps.io-2023.02.11-17_36_34.png

I haven't looked for a while but always thought it was the elderly with comorbidities most at risk.

Just to rub salt in the wound Basil, the Govt just announced that free medical care for Covid will cease, unless you are Maori, then you still get free GP visits.  
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/covid-19-coronavirus-general-practice-funding-cut-as-majority-of-cases-treated-as-mild-infection/MS75UMYF6RBWHBEOFOVBMHU4ZU/

I seem to recall some sort of protests in little ol' enzed about this 40 odd years ago...

It feels this thread starts again to turn away from the thread title ... if people feel like government bashing or supporting the antis ... maybe they could pick the right thread to avoid annoying everybody else.

Quote from: BlackPeter on Feb 15, 2023, 10:13 AMIt feels this thread starts again to turn away from the thread title ... if people feel like government bashing or supporting the antis ... maybe they could pick the right thread to avoid annoying everybody else.

We are discussing treatment availability for covid - it literally could not be MORE relevant.  No treatment, more likely to be sicker and end up with long covid. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/07/health/paxlovid-long-covid.html
"People who took the antiviral drug Paxlovid within a few days after being infected with the coronavirus were less likely to be experiencing long Covid several months later, a large new study (https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2022.11.03.22281783v1) found.
The findings suggest that for people who are medically eligible for the antiviral — older adults or people with certain health problems — Paxlovid not only reduces the odds that they will be hospitalized or die from a coronavirus infection, but also lowers their risk of long-term symptoms."

Quote from: KW on Feb 13, 2023, 09:55 PMJust to rub salt in the wound Basil, the Govt just announced that free medical care for Covid will cease, unless you are Maori, then you still get free GP visits. 
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/covid-19-coronavirus-general-practice-funding-cut-as-majority-of-cases-treated-as-mild-infection/MS75UMYF6RBWHBEOFOVBMHU4ZU/

More race based favoritism, I'm so "happy"

Quote from: BlackPeter on Jan 03, 2023, 12:47 PMLook - it is quite disappointing that you consistently work with "well, it was fine for me and my relatives".

Sounds like the story with six people playing Russian roulette in a room with a revolver: five came out of the room and told us that everything was fine. Number six didn't made a statement, so we assume she agreed, don't we?

Does this mean that Russian Roulette is a safe game?

I know as well people who tell me it is safe to drive without safety belt. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say as well its safe to smoke. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say drink driving is safe, they did it before and they are still around. Do I need to say more?

and yes, some people mock the Covid measures, because they happened to belong to the people who came through quite fine. Why care about the rest ... ?

Congratulations that Covid worked out for you and your family, but making policies based on a statistically absolutely irrelevant number would be pretty dumb, actually braindead populism.

But yes, you are right - populism is always braindead, i.e. this statement was a duplication :) ;

It's called personal responsibility. If you are fat and have comorbidities, by all means lock yourself down. Don't stop others from going about their business. The lockdowns were a disaster economically, mentally and everything else. Martin Lally (my former finance prof) has come out recently and stated the cost of lockdowns far outweighed the benefits and lives lost. By a country mile.

Do we really need the fat shaming? I'm fat but I still haven't had covid  ;)

Quote from: blackcap on May 03, 2023, 08:40 PMIt's called personal responsibility. If you are fat and have comorbidities, by all means lock yourself down. Don't stop others from going about their business. The lockdowns were a disaster economically, mentally and everything else. Martin Lally (my former finance prof) has come out recently and stated the cost of lockdowns far outweighed the benefits and lives lost. By a country mile.

Quote from: blackcap on May 03, 2023, 08:40 PMIt's called personal responsibility. If you are fat and have comorbidities, by all means lock yourself down. Don't stop others from going about their business. The lockdowns were a disaster economically, mentally and everything else. Martin Lally (my former finance prof) has come out recently and stated the cost of lockdowns far outweighed the benefits and lives lost. By a country mile.

You make this sound as if it is all just the fault of the people who are in danger of dying from COVID? Anybody who used to have cancer at some stage in their life - must be their own fault, why didn't they die than instead of being now a burden to the healthy people like you who just want to have fund? Anybody who is suffering from an autoimmune disease? Must be their own fault, why didn't they pick parents with a better set of genes?

Is this really who you are?

Quote from: BlackPeter on May 04, 2023, 11:03 AMYou make this sound as if it is all just the fault of the people who are in danger of dying from COVID? Anybody who used to have cancer at some stage in their life - must be their own fault, why didn't they die than instead of being now a burden to the healthy people like you who just want to have fund? Anybody who is suffering from an autoimmune disease? Must be their own fault, why didn't they pick parents with a better set of genes?

Is this really who you are?

You are totally taking my post out of context. There was no need to lock down. There was/is more cost to society by locking down and thus more people going to die than we saved. Always the way it was going to be. Listen to Dr Lally and his analysis. We put a $ value on peoples lives. We spent a hell of a lot of money saving a few for covid. We spent so much, that we forgot about all the other diseases and future generations are going to pay and suffer.

Pharmac and other agencies every day make the evaluation of how many people they will allow to die. They could fund all the drugs that are required but do not. There is a reason for that. The same analysis should have applied to covid but did not.

Nothing to do with better genes or autoimmunity. That is a red-herring.

Quote from: blackcap on May 04, 2023, 04:57 PMYou are totally taking my post out of context. There was no need to lock down. There was/is more cost to society by locking down and thus more people going to die than we saved. Always the way it was going to be. Listen to Dr Lally and his analysis. We put a $ value on peoples lives. We spent a hell of a lot of money saving a few for covid. We spent so much, that we forgot about all the other diseases and future generations are going to pay and suffer.

Pharmac and other agencies every day make the evaluation of how many people they will allow to die. They could fund all the drugs that are required but do not. There is a reason for that. The same analysis should have applied to covid but did not.

Nothing to do with better genes or autoimmunity. That is a red-herring.

I didn't take anything out of context and cited your whole post.

However - if that's what you wanted to say (instead of doing some bashing of people with health conditions), than I understand and accept your claimed intent.

Absolutely - we all put a price on human life every day, and we are as well happy to accept some loss of life to not inconvenience us too much. We accept people dying of car crashes and balance that vs the economic benefits of individual transport as well as the freedom of the survivors to drive around. We accept people dying from the flu and put that over asking sick people to stay at home. We accept people dying because we don't want to buy them the expensive medicine which could extend their life.

We are as well happy to accept people killing others because they can't control their urges (like drinking, smoking) ... sure, sometimes we might lock one of the perpetrators up afterwards, but the result - we accepted another unnecessary death is quite the same.

Having said that - much easier to criticise the Covid restrictions with the benefit of hindsight than making an optimal decision without the knowledge we now have at the time. Given it was a new disease mortality and long time effects have been unknown. Do you really want to bash politicians for trying to be cautious instead of implementing a she'll be right mentality without prior knowing the odds?

For some funny reason we don't like too many people dying (particularly if we are attached to them) - i.e. this is a no-no for any politician who wants to be re-elected.

Still - comparing NZ at the time with other countries I'd say we faired pretty well. Sure - not ideal, but I don't see too many countries who did much better.

But sure, it depends, what value you put on your and other peoples life. I hear in the US more Republicans than Democrats died of Covid, and I am sure each of them was happily burying their own family and rejoiced when their own lungs stopped working for the freedom to not wear a mask or not to have a lockdown. They clearly have their priorities, and if you fight for the right of every halfwit to wear automatic weapons, then - what difference does it make whether your family dies of COVID or gets killed by said halfwit? Dead is dead.

Just a question of values and priorities.

But yes, we might put different values on the freedom for others to take human life, but in principle - your observation that we put a monetary value on every life is correct.

Quote from: blackcap on May 04, 2023, 04:57 PM...

But yes, we might put different values on the freedom for others to take human life, but in principle - your observation that we put a monetary value on every life is correct.

There is a number for the value of a NZ human life. As I recall its around $6.7m. Cost / benefit discussions can be done off that base.

Here you go Basil, you should be able to get your hands on this stuff

https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/affordable-diabetes-drug-reduces-long-covid-risk-41-percent-study