Long Covid

[Popeye]

For some perspective, this was produced by the Financial Times using UK data.  A very interesting visualisation from a reputable publisher.  Just like no one wants a bad dose of the flu, no one wants a bad dose of covid...

[KW]

A 1 in 200 chance of death for those in the 60-69 age group is a pretty serious risk of death and I can attest that for Mrs B and I it certainly was a very serious illness.  It grinds my gears more than a little bit when some people simply call it a cold.

Absent from the above statistics are the mortality rate for people in their 70's 80's and 90's.  They have plenty to be concerned about with Covid.

Did you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

[Hectorplains]

Did you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

Up the wazoo     Crikey, the shot was bad enough in the arm!

[BlackPeter]

Did you miss the bit where I said  "Turns out that all that was needed was targeted protection of elderly and seriously unwell people"?

People under 60 had very little to fear from Covid, people over 60 could have been offered all the vaccines and boosters up the wazoo.  Retirement villages and Rest homes (and old people in general) could have been locked down while everything else stayed open and people allowed to carry on with their lives.  Everyone could have been offered the anti-virals.  Told to lose weight, take Vitamin D.  There was no need for lockdowns of the entire population, and closed schools, and firing healthy people from their jobs.

I am sure we could have done things still better ... we always could. However - if I compare NZ with the majority of other countries, than we did quite well, didn't we? One of the lowest mortality rates in the world ... and our economy survived as well quite intact in comparison.

You sound very heartless, and I think you know that your proposal would not have worked. Sounds a bit like the Swedish model, and they lost a lot of elderlies.

"Just" locking down the elderlies ... how exactly are you doing that? You need to lock down as well anybody coming in contact with them. Carers, nurses, families, grandchildren, cafeteria staff, hairdresser ... actually a big part of the population.

And what about anybody with preconditions. Don't they deserve to live? Sure, some might be just fat due to lack of discipline, but others do have a medical condition they are not responsible for. And what about the people who have cancer, had (or need) heart surgery and many other conditions? Do you think they are surplus to requirements - or how exactly do you lock down more than 50% of the population while giving the rest (who is interacting with the locked down lot as carers, health workers, teachers, service providers) full freedoms?

Did you discuss this view with anybody you care about who would be vulnerable?

So what you say is - the people who are young, healthy and not overweight are fine and don't need to lock down ... and screw the rest? Is this what you are saying?

Well, you are not getting younger either ... just think about where and how you want to end up.

[KW]

Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake. But apart from that they would not have changed anything.  So yeah, the Swedish model with "targeted protection of the elderly (and unwell, and fat people who cant be bothered going on a diet).  Otherwise known as the Great Barrington Declaration.

How do you manage it?  Daily testing of workers.  Protective equipment.  Increased sanitation procedures. 

At the end of the day, we didnt "save" any lives.  The vast majority of elderly and unwell people that were vulnerable to Covid died anyway, they just didnt die from Covid.  2021 was a record year for deaths in NZ.  2022 is on track to surpass 2021.  Less than half of the excess deaths in 2022 (those over and above the 2021 number) can be attributed to Covid.  Everyone still died.  Just that we destroyed healthy people's lives/livelihoods/education as well.

Am I cold hearted in believing that giving elderly and sick people a few extra months of life in their rest home or hospital was not worth destroying others?  Maybe, but so be it.  Death comes to us all.   If I were 83 (the average age of Covid death) would I expect everyone else to sacrifice themselves so I can hang on for a bit longer?  No.   Anyone who thinks otherwise is a selfish narcissist.

And here we all are "living with covid".  Where is the outrage now?  How are we managing the elderly and unwell now?  Whatever we are doing now, we could have done back then.  Vaccines were available in early 2021, all the elderly and vulnerable could have been vaccinated by February 2021 and the country could have gone back to normal then.  Instead we had another 18 months of restrictions, including a 4 month lockdown of Auckland, closed borders preventing people from returning to the country, and the social exclusion of healthy people from society.  For what?

[BlackPeter]

Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake. But apart from that they would not have changed anything.  So yeah, the Swedish model with "targeted protection of the elderly (and unwell, and fat people who cant be bothered going on a diet).  Otherwise known as the Great Barrington Declaration.

How do you manage it?  Daily testing of workers.  Protective equipment.  Increased sanitation procedures. 

At the end of the day, we didnt "save" any lives.  The vast majority of elderly and unwell people that were vulnerable to Covid died anyway, they just didnt die from Covid.  2021 was a record year for deaths in NZ.  2022 is on track to surpass 2021.  Less than half of the excess deaths in 2022 (those over and above the 2021 number) can be attributed to Covid.  Everyone still died.  Just that we destroyed healthy people's lives/livelihoods/education as well.

Sounds like you are a woman with an axe to grind. Maybe you should first look into facts instead of preaching your religion.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

NZ had (as per today) 717 Covid deaths per million of population, while Sweden had 2133 Covid deaths per million. Three times as many killed as percentage of population. I guess it might not make any difference to you, but it for sure made a difference to the more than 7000 Kiwis who survived in NZ while they would have died under the Swedish regime. Anybody you love who would make up that number?

Just to clarify the numbers: Sweden killed 2133 per million, while NZ killed only 717 ... i.e. the Swedish method killed 1416 per million more than the NZ method. Multiply that with 5 (million) - and you arrive at the more than 7000 people I talked about. Ask any of them and their relatives which method they would have preferred.

[KW]

Sounds like you are a woman with an axe to grind. Maybe you should first look into facts instead of preaching your religion.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

NZ had (as per today) 717 Covid deaths per million of population, while Sweden had 2133 Covid deaths per million. Three times as many killed as percentage of population. I guess it might not make any difference to you, but it for sure made a difference to the more than 7000 Kiwis who survived in NZ while they would have died under the Swedish regime. Anybody you love who would make up that number?

Just to clarify the numbers: Sweden killed 2133 per million, while NZ killed only 717 ... i.e. the Swedish method killed 1416 per million more than the NZ method. Multiply that with 5 (million) - and you arrive at the more than 7000 people I talked about. Ask any of them and their relatives which method they would have preferred.

I'm not sure what your point is?  I said "Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake."  So what I am saying is like Sweden, but with targeted protection of the elderly and vulnerable.  If Sweden had done that they wouldnt have lost so many (although as I've pointed out, those people would still have died anyway from something else).

All my elderly relatives (70+) who have had covid have survived, none were hospitalised, most said they just had a bad cough (sorry Basil, but thats what they said).  They now wonder what the point of lockdowns and everything else was for as well.   

[Popeye]

I think New Zealand just got lucky, keeping out covid long enough for it to weaken.  The vaccines werent the game changer everyone hoped they would be, but perhaps they helped old people somewhat?  I agree that after everyone had the opportunity to get vaccinated we should have gone back to Plan A, and stopped the extreme measures of shutting down society and incessantly pushing a single solution policy.  Overall the costs were too high, and we still do not fully understand them because they are not over by a long shot. 

I also dont think you can do a comparison with Sweden just looking at (with?  of?) covid deaths, you have to look at all of the costs and benefits not just some.  It is just too simplistic.  With such one dimensional thinking you could justify shutting down the roads to eliminate road deaths.  Or stop weekend sports to end sports injuries.  There is a reason that Pharmac wont fund a $10m drug that would save 10 lives if the same $10m could be used to save 1000 lives, by doin this are they "killing" the unfortunate 10?

[BlackPeter]

I'm not sure what your point is?  I said "Sweden didnt do anything to protect the elderly, and they said that was their mistake."  So what I am saying is like Sweden, but with targeted protection of the elderly and vulnerable.  If Sweden had done that they wouldnt have lost so many (although as I've pointed out, those people would still have died anyway from something else).

All my elderly relatives (70+) who have had covid have survived, none were hospitalised, most said they just had a bad cough (sorry Basil, but thats what they said).  They now wonder what the point of lockdowns and everything else was for as well.   

Look - it is quite disappointing that you consistently work with "well, it was fine for me and my relatives".

Sounds like the story with six people playing Russian roulette in a room with a revolver: five came out of the room and told us that everything was fine. Number six didn't made a statement, so we assume she agreed, don't we?

Does this mean that Russian Roulette is a safe game?

I know as well people who tell me it is safe to drive without safety belt. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say as well its safe to smoke. Dumb people, but hey - they survived so far, so they must be right?

Some people say drink driving is safe, they did it before and they are still around. Do I need to say more?

and yes, some people mock the Covid measures, because they happened to belong to the people who came through quite fine. Why care about the rest ... ?

Congratulations that Covid worked out for you and your family, but making policies based on a statistically absolutely irrelevant number would be pretty dumb, actually braindead populism.

But yes, you are right - populism is always braindead, i.e. this statement was a duplication ;

[Administrator]

I'm concerned this thread has gone off the topic of "Long Covid" and is at risk of becoming politically contentious. If you wish to debate past/present covid policy I think it would be best to make a new thread. I don't have much appetite for these kinds of debates to exist on this forum (I don't think anyone will change their minds i.e. it is a pointless argument), I won't hesitate to remove posts etc if things start getting sour. If you are up for it we could do a debate style thread such as:

Team 1 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 1 rebuttal of Team 2 viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 rebuttal of Team 1 viewpoint (1 post)
Thread locked to all replies

While this has some short comings, it would also allow both sides to fully explain their viewpoints in a concise manner while avoiding an endless argument.

[Hectorplains]

I'm concerned this thread has gone off the topic of "Long Covid" and is at risk of becoming politically contentious. If you wish to debate past/present covid policy I think it would be best to make a new thread. I don't have much appetite for these kinds of debates to exist on this forum (I don't think anyone will change their minds i.e. it is a pointless argument), I won't hesitate to remove posts etc if things start getting sour. If you are up for it we could do a debate style thread such as:

Team 1 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 presents their viewpoint (1 post)
Team 1 rebuttal of Team 2 viewpoint (1 post)
Team 2 rebuttal of Team 1 viewpoint (1 post)
Thread locked to all replies

While this has some short comings, it would also allow both sides to fully explain their viewpoints in a concise manner while avoiding an endless argument.

Count me out!  I have an eighteen year old isolating in his room now.  That's enough bloody Covid in my day. 

[Basil]

Yes let's get this back on track.  Long term effect "Brain fog".
Article here from Harvard medical school. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-is-covid-19-brain-fog-and-how-can-you-clear-it-2021030822076
Since recovering from the physical symptoms of Covid in mid -late October and feeling back to normal energy levels around mid November I would say its taking me longer to "get going" in terms of mental thought processes in the mornings.  Mrs B reports the same thing and seems to be sleeping in a lot longer.

Whether this is a product of simply getting older, My Dad retired at 61 and I am tempted to do the same now I've reached the same age in November last year or is it brain fog I cannot reliably say.  What I can say is I am reluctant to make any investment decisions or do any professional work for clients until after my second coffee mid morning.  I used to be sharper than that....I suppose this is just yet another one of the "joy's" of getting a bit older ?

[KW]

Whether this is a product of simply getting older, My Dad retired at 61 and I am tempted to do the same now I've reached the same age in November last year or is it brain fog I cannot reliably say.  What I can say is I am reluctant to make any investment decisions or do any professional work for clients until after my second coffee mid morning.  I used to be sharper than that....I suppose this is just yet another one of the "joy's" of getting a bit older ?

And how much of it is just undiagnosed mild depression from 3 years of living under great stress being told you were about to die at any moment, months locked up in your house with minimal social contact with people, and unable to take holidays to relax?  I think most people felt crap before they had covid, but long covid stories has simply made them more aware of  how crap they feel. 

[Basil]

And how much of it is just undiagnosed mild depression from 3 years of living under great stress being told you were about to die at any moment, months locked up in your house with minimal social contact with people, and unable to take holidays to relax?  I think most people felt crap before they had covid, but long covid stories has simply made them more aware of  how crap they feel. 

Yeap, I hear you and agree 110%.  Its been really, really tough this whole thing on people's mental health.
It's hard to be too prescriptive as to what's causing one's general malaise, but I think a lot of people are carrying a lot of mental health wounds from nearly 3 years of this pandemic, myself included.   I've found getting back into boating tremendously helpful in starting to heal the wounds.   Maybe everyone should embrace the hobbies they used to enjoy and to heck with the cost ?  One thing I know for sure from my previous battle with depression many years ago...you have to keep making deposits into your "joy bank" over and over and over and.....again and feeling well again in terms of one's mental health takes a lot of time and a conscious effort to realise that being heavily in overdraft in terms of your mental health wellbeing isn't something that gets fixed quickly.  Every time i step on board and enjoy that big puppy whether it's just Mrs B and I or with friends and family that's another good sized desposit in my "joy bank" and another step back towards feeling 100% again.  I think everyone needs to spend a lot of time in their "happy place", wherever that may be, to help get over what we've been through.  Whether its classic cars, art, getting out in nature, walking your dogs in a park, the beach... whatever is your happy place, spend lots and lots of time there and you'll feel a lot better.

[Popeye]

I feel for the people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (often following a bout of the Epstein Barr virus) who were gaslight by the medical establishment and told it was all in their heads, or at least untreatable.  My observation is that long covid is a rebranding of post-viral fatigue/after effects similar to so called glandular fever.  Most people recover fine - some do not.  Whether it is more frequent or more severe than from other viruses is an open question, which is not to deny that clearly it knocks some people around, and can hang around for quite some time. 

There was a study I saw that tracked people with covid and other viruses, they found that less from the covid cohort suffered from long covid.  From memory there were only 1000 participants, so not the final word but interesting nevertheless.  Maybe all of this sudden focus on viral after effects will have a tangential effect of shedding some light on the causes of and treatments for hitherto ignored CFS/fibromyalgia sufferers?

THose struggling to shake the after effects of covid (or any illness) have my sympathy.