Wealth Taxes

Started by Waltzing, Apr 26, 2023, 07:44 PM

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KW

Quote from: Minimoke on May 02, 2023, 01:46 PMIn the year ended Feb 2023 we lost net 17,300 new Zealanders. Most resident visas are people coming in from India, China and Phillipnes. So its fair to say we are more attractive than those countries.

And those immigrants are coming here because they want the opportunity to build wealth for themselves and their families.  As other NZers leave they will soon get sick of bearing the brunt of paying for the welfare state and compensating Maori for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with, and once they have citizenship (eg. the next generation) they will be leaving too. 
Don't drink and buy shares in a downtrend, you bloody idiot.

BlackPeter

Quote from: KW on May 02, 2023, 01:53 PMAnd those immigrants are coming here because they want the opportunity to build wealth for themselves and their families.  As other NZers leave they will soon get sick of bearing the brunt of paying for the welfare state and compensating Maori for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with, and once they have citizenship (eg. the next generation) they will be leaving too.

Well, sounds like we clearly have too many whingers here. Are you really promising they are leaving? Are you a woman of your word? I wish you well.

There is however a old tale which comes to mind:

Old woman living halfway between North City and South City. A young couple moves from North to South and meeting her, they ask how it is in South City. Old Woman asks - how was it in North City?

Answer: nice, friendly and helpful people. Old woman says, well, South City is exactly the same.

Couple of days later a middle aged woman passes by and asks the old women, how is it in South City?

Question: How was it in North City?

Answer: Unfriendly people, government is always fleecing you and nobody was looking after me, but myself.


Old woman says ... well, its exactly the same way in South City.

Have a think about the story. Hint: The old woman was saying the truth - in both cases.

Administrator

This thread is starting to become controversial. Please try to keep your posts focussed on facts and avoid insulting other posters or their posts. IMO you are very unlikely to convince anyone to change their views on matters like this, try not to fall out over it.

KW

Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.  
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/

"More than 12,000 millionaires left France in 2016, according to research group New World Wealth. In total, they say the country experienced a net outflow of more than 60,000 millionaires between 2000 and 2016. When these people left, France lost not only the revenue generated from the wealth tax, but all the others too, including income tax and VAT.
French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. In a paper published in 2008, he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year. What's more ISF fraud mainly involving an underassessment of property assets was estimated at around 28 per cent of total revenues."
Don't drink and buy shares in a downtrend, you bloody idiot.

Minimoke

Interesting that yesterday Tuku Morgan has come out and said that at the end of the 3 waters set up Maori will own the water and he is now looking at ways to charge power companies for the use  of that water.

So back on topic, and using David Clarks wealth research how wealthy do we think that will make Maori?

It would be a very difficult calculation as the Report has introduced this concept of Economic wealth which is to include the un-realised increase in value of an asset.

I suppose wealth would be calculated something like this:
- a cup of water falls as snow in the mountains and as snow has zero value
- on the waikato river there are 8 hydro dams. So presumably power companies can be charged at each dam, because each dam is using that water
- so the snow melts and enters Lake taupo and we now have our 1 cup of water.
- say at each damn each hydro is charged $1.00. That would give us a potential value of that water at $8.00
- So we now have an asset sitting in Lake Taupo worth $8.00 of unrealised income. So it has gone from $0.00 to $8.00. Now in my books that is an exceptional potential rate of return. Especially when absolutely nothing is done to create that value. And as the assets flows through the system absolutely nothing happens to degrade or depreciate the value of that asset. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to be done (ie no expences at all) to get that asset from Lake Taupo to Port Waikato.

And that's how wealth is going to be created in New Zealand

Raven

The position of many Maori commentators is that they already do, and always have, owned the water.

Minimoke

Quote from: Raven on May 03, 2023, 10:36 AMThe position of many Maori commentators is that they already do, and always have, owned the water.

At common law, broadly, no one owns water. At best a person may have certain rights to that water. But with that comes responsibilities. Eg not to pollute it. These rights are uslauuy tied to land ownership and riparina rights.

And claims to "ownership" would have been made during the Foreshore and Seabed debates (and the subsequent marine Act. Which one way or another resulted in rights being given to things essentially growing in the sand / rocks. But people still had a right to navigate over those things. Ie float over water.

Given the government legislated that no one owns the foreshore and see bed, then it is highly unlikely any claim to ownership of water would survive.

Of course a government could legislate that water is capable of ownership. But this would have major ramifications in terms of foreshore and seabed along with the Resource management Act. AS well as rewriting common law and potentially interfering with basic, but well established, human rights

But if someone can own water then the y can expec tto become veryt wealthy

Minimoke

Quote from: BlackPeter on May 02, 2023, 08:54 AMQuite dumb comment if I may say so.

There is obviously no country in the world free of corruption, given that they are all run by humans (though I hear that the reminder of the animal kingdom is corruptible as well :P ). Of course is there corruption in NZ as anywhere else, but it is the degree which makes the difference.

A bit of pain is something most people are able to take, excruciating pain however not so.

Same thing with corruption, which creates in countries like Venezuela a dysfunctional society - this makes it that corrosive.

You didn't tell us though, when your plane is leaving - I can hardly wait to get your regular reports from the land of your desires :P ;
We can have wealth created through fair means or foul. What level of corruption are you comfortable with.

Yesterday we had the one of the highest positions in our parliament, the Speaker hiding a MP's letter of resignation which would see her removed from the house. It is obvious he knows she has resigned from her party because he now considers her to be an independent MP. This ought to trigger our "waka jumping" laws.

Accusing the Speaking of lying to the House may be a step too far. It may be wrong in fact but the perception is real.

The alternative is that the MP concerned has lied to the speaker. She has publicly said she has resigned from the Party and is joining another party. The alternative to a lie is that she is manipulating our laws that sees her retain a seat in Parliament, continue to receive a Mps pay and occupy a position the NZ electorate did not vote for.

This move distorts the proportionality of our House of representative. The NZ electorate only gave the minor party concerned 2 seats in the house. These acts have increased their proportionality by 50% - a very significant increase.

This level of "corruption" sits very uncomfortably with me. Such shenanigans don't give me comfort that we have a level playing field for becoming wealthy.

BlackPeter

Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 09:17 AMWe can have wealth created through fair means or foul. What level of corruption are you comfortable with.

Yesterday we had the one of the highest positions in our parliament, the Speaker hiding a MP's letter of resignation which would see her removed from the house. It is obvious he knows she has resigned from her party because he now considers her to be an independent MP. This ought to trigger our "waka jumping" laws.

Accusing the Speaking of lying to the House may be a step too far. It may be wrong in fact but the perception is real.

The alternative is that the MP concerned has lied to the speaker. She has publicly said she has resigned from the Party and is joining another party. The alternative to a lie is that she is manipulating our laws that sees her retain a seat in Parliament, continue to receive a Mps pay and occupy a position the NZ electorate did not vote for.

This move distorts the proportionality of our House of representative. The NZ electorate only gave the minor party concerned 2 seats in the house. These acts have increased their proportionality by 50% - a very significant increase.

This level of "corruption" sits very uncomfortably with me. Such shenanigans don't give me comfort that we have a level playing field for becoming wealthy.

Look, I am sure the story will play out, and I just find it hilarious that a former member of Labour and a current member of the Maori party demonstrates that much bad faith acting in public. Good character seems to be irrelevant for this type of politicians, and in my view only turds can vote for her come next election.

However - no matter, how this plays out and what the speaker knew and should have done (not a specialist for ACTs favorite bill), I see a lot of bad faith acting, and potentially the speaker ignoring or misinterpreting a law, but it has clearly nothing to do with wealth taxes.

Could you move your outrage to a more appropriate thread?

Minimoke

Quote from: BlackPeter on May 04, 2023, 10:55 AMLook, I am sure the story will play out, and I just find it hilarious that a former member of Labour and a current member of the Maori party demonstrates that much bad faith acting in public. Good character seems to be irrelevant for this type of politicians, and in my view only turds can vote for her come next election.

However - no matter, how this plays out and what the speaker knew and should have done (not a specialist for ACTs favorite bill), I see a lot of bad faith acting, and potentially the speaker ignoring or misinterpreting a law, but it has clearly nothing to do with wealth taxes.

Could you move your outrage to a more appropriate thread?
Who do you think will be creating the wealth tax laws?

BlackPeter

Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 10:58 AMWho do you think will be creating the wealth tax laws?

A bunch of well paid bureaucrats advised by the government of the day.

Look - your stance is quite ridiculous ...

We do live clearly in one of the better systems. Sure - it is not perfect, but this is the thing with all systems run by humans.

Currently we have a left wing government. We might not like that, but they are absolutely legitimate in power and while they demonstrate from time to time some incompetence, so did previous conservative governments. No difference.

Our democracy works - and if you are constantly trying to undermine the government, than you are acting just corrosive. Like this idiot Trump in the States or any other autocrat who sees his position endangered. Nothing good can come out of that.

Feel free to point out better solutions if you disagree with the government, feel free to highlight their mistakes, but constantly seeding distrust on people who just have a different political view than you just badly reflects on yourself.

Get used to democracy.

Best thing is - anybody who does not like this system here is allowed to leave, making it hard to understand why people prefer to try and corrode the system here with quite ridiculous comments instead of going to a place they like. If you think a better place exists, than it is just a plane hop away. The world is your oyster - no need to turn it with corrosion and undeserved distrust into a worse place.

Minimoke

Quote from: BlackPeter on May 04, 2023, 11:25 AMA bunch of well paid bureaucrats advised by the government of the day.

Look - your stance is quite ridiculous ...

We do live clearly in one of the better systems. Sure - it is not perfect, but this is the thing with all systems run by humans.

Currently we have a left wing government. We might not like that, but they are absolutely legitimate in power and while they demonstrate from time to time some incompetence, so did previous conservative governments. No difference.

Our democracy works - and if you are constantly trying to undermine the government, than you are acting just corrosive. Like this idiot Trump in the States or any other autocrat who sees his position endangered. Nothing good can come out of that.

Feel free to point out better solutions if you disagree with the government, feel free to highlight their mistakes, but constantly seeding distrust on people who just have a different political view than you just badly reflects on yourself.

Get used to democracy.

Best thing is - anybody who does not like this system here is allowed to leave, making it hard to understand why people prefer to try and corrode the system here with quite ridiculous comments instead of going to a place they like. If you think a better place exists, than it is just a plane hop away. The world is your oyster - no need to turn it with corrosion and undeserved distrust into a worse place.
Suggesting people up sticks and leave is not a very constructive way to have a discussion.

New Zealands landscape was in part created by seismic change. The rest is due to glacial slow erosion and the drip, drip drip one drop at a time erosion by water. So slow you don't even notice it happening. Until one day you open your curtains and see the world view you once had has now gone.

We can choose to ignore politics and try to quash those that have an interest. Or we can take an interst and try to raise and discuss the issues.

You may think beaurocrats will create our tax laws. You are wrong. Sure they will draft them. But they will draft them on the instructions of the government of the day (along with their own wee tinkering that will see them safe in their jobs until well after the next government is installed.

We should be looking very closely and thinking about where our wealth is going to go and how we are going to be taxed.

The Greens have already come out and said they favour a 1% tax on wealth over net wealth of $1m and 2% for assets over $2m.

We now have Parker flying the flag that unrealized profit on assets you hold should be taxed.

And the Maori party who don't yet appear focused on a wealth tax pers se. But their increase in cost though minimum income levels, increase minimum wage, maori pay equity, increased student allowance and the like will have to be paid from somewhere.

We should be alert to what shady deals these folks (and other political parties) have up their sleeves because we run the risk of having our own personal hard earned wealth eroded. And worse yet given to people who have done nothing to earn it. All the while the landscape we once knew gets eroded away.

BlackPeter

Quote from: Minimoke on May 04, 2023, 12:56 PMSuggesting people up sticks and leave is not a very constructive way to have a discussion.

New Zealands landscape was in part created by seismic change. The rest is due to glacial slow erosion and the drip, drip drip one drop at a time erosion by water. So slow you don't even notice it happening. Until one day you open your curtains and see the world view you once had has now gone.

We can choose to ignore politics and try to quash those that have an interest. Or we can take an interst and try to raise and discuss the issues.

You may think beaurocrats will create our tax laws. You are wrong. Sure they will draft them. But they will draft them on the instructions of the government of the day (along with their own wee tinkering that will see them safe in their jobs until well after the next government is installed.

We should be looking very closely and thinking about where our wealth is going to go and how we are going to be taxed.

The Greens have already come out and said they favour a 1% tax on wealth over net wealth of $1m and 2% for assets over $2m.

We now have Parker flying the flag that unrealized profit on assets you hold should be taxed.

And the Maori party who don't yet appear focused on a wealth tax pers se. But their increase in cost though minimum income levels, increase minimum wage, maori pay equity, increased student allowance and the like will have to be paid from somewhere.

We should be alert to what shady deals these folks (and other political parties) have up their sleeves because we run the risk of having our own personal hard earned wealth eroded. And worse yet given to people who have done nothing to earn it. All the while the landscape we once knew gets eroded away.

Good - this is even on subject. Well done!

And absolutely - lets have a good political discussion, even without trying to undermine the other political side.

What do we want as a nation from the state? Education, Security, Healthcare, Infrastructure?

How do we want to fund that?

.. and how do we minimise inefficiencies on the way from inputs (taxes) to outputs (desired state services).

As far as I am concerned:

I do see  lot of wasted as well as wrongly applied resources ... but this is not really relevant for this particular thread title, and neither for any particular government of the day.

I do see a tax system which focusses mainly on consumption (GST) and some parts of income (mainly from salaries and wages). I can feel with taxed salary earners, given that I used to come from their corner. Honestly - the taxes on income in NZ are very high (in comparison) and quite unfair e.g. to a sole earner who needs to fund his family.

I do see as well a system which is quite nice to people who are wealthy enough that they don't need anymore income from paid work. I personally enjoy this situation now, but I still think its unfair. Obviously - you could say I deserve it, given that the state used to squeeze me before ...

I am certainly not asking for overall tax increases ... I think our income tax is already ways too high, particularly considering that thanks to inflation more and more people move into the top tax brackets.

Our GSt is necessary, but in international comparison already at the upper level too (so, if anything I think we should reduce it),

... and I think it only fair if we would fill the gap we created by reducing above with a fair and efficient capital gains tax. I realise however that this might sound like an oximoron, however - I have seen reasonably efficient and fair implementations of capital gains taxes working (e.g. in Germany). It is doable. Still better however would be an inflation adjusted capital gains tax, but maybe this is asking for too much :):

Waltzing

Before you get all excited..

you need a multi dim model of all the taxes inside the system and the flow of money through it.

SInce this model is not something the public, nor the Polies, Nor the Political parties, nor treasury or the RNBZ have; its pointless of this wonderful stuff about tax and how do you afford this and that.

Acually Roger understood this and  AI (Hive data models) over time will allow information to be gathered and modelled in ways humans cannot at the moment.

Its almost silly to take old single DIM[n] models and try to apply them to the future.

KW

Australia just released its budget with big tax cuts for upper income earners.  The new tax rate of 30% will apply from $45k to $200k.  On top of the first $18k being tax free.  This not only impacts income taxes, but the rate at which capital gains tax will be charged, at 50% of 30% (ie. 15%) for assets held longer than a year.  Sure beats NZ 100% capital gains on property held for less than 10 years. 

Good luck to NZ trying to keep workers.
Don't drink and buy shares in a downtrend, you bloody idiot.